Herman Cain is schizophrenic?

[NickyJ]

As we all well know whenever a hippopotamus leaves the river and lives on land it is identical to every other horse.

No, since a hippopotamus is not even of the same genus as a horse.

A word is defined by its definition, not its etymology.

And fetus' definition is "offspring".

Why not?

Because it is alive.

Actually, wait a minute..... It is a lump of tissue. So am I. So are you!

So being made of tissue makes you a non-human. Ah well, you learn something new every day.

Yes, but please apply basic logic. If I make a statement about how some Christians bring religion into the discussion, you can't refute it by saying "I'm a Christian and I don't".

Ah, so if proof shows up in front of your face, ignore it. Good to know.

First of all, anecdotal "evidence."

Things like that aren't limited to only my family. It happens all over the world.

Second of all, you're confusing definitions. A fetus can never survive outside of the mother, that is the point he is trying to make here - it fundamentally requires the biological support of the womb in order to function in any meaningful way. Like an organ, if the fetus is removed, it will die. All fetuses suffer this restriction.

As do deformed babies that cannot survive outside the womb. Your point?

A baby, on the other hand, newborn or non-, can survive outside of the mother's womb, although it should be noted that does not mean it will. For the same reason that a man who dies of genetic disease 40 years after he is born is yet not a fetus, the deformed baby that your mother had before you was a baby the moment it left the womb as a moreorless self-sufficient organism. That it couldn't survive is irrelevant, for at that point remaining in the womb would have done it no good. Its time as a fetus was up, and its time as a fully-developed human being was, unfortunately, cut short.

But the deformed baby still couldn't survive outside the womb. And going off of how not being able to survive outside the womb is a requirement for being a human life, that means the deformed baby wasn't human.

 

[El_Machinae]

Yeah, I don't think 'capable of surving outside the womb' is a really good metric, either. I'd focus on what makes us not just lumps of tissue.

 

[Crezth]

No, since a hippopotamus is not even of the same genus as a horse.

You want Point, buddy? Sorry, pal, you missed Point; we passed it four stops ago.

And fetus' definition is "offspring".

From Google:

fetus: An unborn or unhatched offspring of a mammal, in particular an unborn human baby more than eight weeks after conception.

Note the specificity; it is an unborn offspring.

Actually, wait a minute..... It is a lump of tissue. So am I. So are you!

So being made of tissue makes you a non-human. Ah well, you learn something new every day.

If we're just lumps of tissue, whence come the "sanctity of life?"

Ah, so if proof shows up in front of your face, ignore it. Good to know.

Nope, that's not what he said. His point was based on deduction, not induction, and the "disproof" that he offered as an example was, in fact, not.

Things like that aren't limited to only my family. It happens all over the world.

Oh, does it? Really? Prove it.

As do deformed babies that cannot survive outside the womb. Your point?

But did the deformed baby die because it couldn't survive outside the womb, or did it die because it was physically disinclined towards living?

At a certain point, a fetus can no more live inside the womb than it can outside - at this point, it is a developed human. The characteristics of a fetus that require it to live inside the womb are not analogous to the characteristics of the deformed child that died outside of it. Otherwise you would argue there is no meaningful distinction between a fetus and a born child, which is neither medically nor legally-speaking factually true.

But the deformed baby still couldn't survive outside the womb. And going off of how not being able to survive outside the womb is a requirement for being a human life, that means the deformed baby wasn't human.

Let me break it down for you.

No fetuses can survive outside the womb.
Some babies can survive outside the womb.

Fetuses: Before birth.
Baby: After birth.

To wit: If a baby dies outside of the womb, it could be for any number of reasons: war, disease, being improperly developed during its fetal stage.

If a fetus dies outside of the womb, it is because it is a fetus, and is incapable of living outside of the womb.

The deformed baby was a baby, but it was also deformed, and physically unable to survive. This is due to a complication in its development, not due to some fetal status on its part.

Protip: Fetuses become babies before they leave the womb.

 

[say1988]

Because it is alive.

Define "alive".

 

[Leoreth]

Ah, so if proof shows up in front of your face, ignore it. Good to know.

What are you even talking about?

I make a statement that there are people with a certain property who make a statement. Now you say you share that property, but don't make that statement. How does that prove that the people I previously talked about don't exist?

To reiterate: I never said ALL Christians hold that position, or that you have to hold that position if you're Christian.

 

[Bestbank Tiger]

I don't think Cain is schizophrenic. He's just not terribly bright.

Yeah, stupid people have degrees in mathematics and computer science all the time.

 

[Bestbank Tiger]

No abortion for 9 months, after which the conceived being has 9 minutes to pay a 9% sales tax on the medical bills to date or get put on death row.

Probably be cheaper than its mandatory insurance premium.

 

[GamezRule]

The only person more confused about Herman Cain's positions then us is Herman Cain.

 

[NickyJ]

You want Point, buddy? Sorry, pal, you missed Point; we passed it four stops ago.

I didn't realize we were driving anywhere.

From Google:

fetus: An unborn or unhatched offspring of a mammal, in particular an unborn human baby more than eight weeks after conception.

Note the specificity; it is an unborn offspring.

Unborn or not, it is offspring.

If we're just lumps of tissue, whence come the "sanctity of life?"

That's my point. Neither we, nor the unborn babies, can simply be called "lumps of tissue."

Oh, does it? Really? Prove it.

For a start, have you ever heard of "March of Dimes"?

But did the deformed baby die because it couldn't survive outside the womb, or did it die because it was physically disinclined towards living?

It was because it couldn't survive outside the womb. Otherwise, it would have died in the womb before birth.

At a certain point, a fetus can no more live inside the womb than it can outside - at this point, it is a developed human. The characteristics of a fetus that require it to live inside the womb are not analogous to the characteristics of the deformed child that died outside of it. Otherwise you would argue there is no meaningful distinction between a fetus and a born child, which is neither medically nor legally-speaking factually true.

Yes, but abortion has the goal of killing a fetus, whether it can live outside the womb or not.

Let me break it down for you.

No fetuses can survive outside the womb.
Some babies can survive outside the womb.

Fetuses: Before birth.
Baby: After birth.

Actually, even some pro-choicers would disagree with you. At week 30, the fetus is usually capable of living outside the womb and would be considered premature at birth. In fact, I believe I've heard of fetuses being able to live outside the womb even before then.

To wit: If a baby dies outside of the womb, it could be for any number of reasons: war, disease, being improperly developed during its fetal stage.

If a fetus dies outside of the womb, it is because it is a fetus, and is incapable of living outside of the womb.

By that metric, people in a coma can be killed as well, since they can't survive without special medical equipment.

The deformed baby was a baby, but it was also deformed, and physically unable to survive. This is due to a complication in its development, not due to some fetal status on its part.

Protip: Fetuses become babies before they leave the womb.

wut?

Fetuses: Before birth.
Baby: After birth.

Define "alive".

"Living, not dead." Boy do I love pocket dictionaries.

 

[Bestbank Tiger]

Well, we should always listen to science, right? So let's see what scientists define as alive:

First link I found when I searched

 

[Bestbank Tiger]

The only person more confused about Herman Cain's positions then us is Herman Cain.

Meh, he's not as bad as Romney and for that matter, no worse than Obama aka Bush on steroids. He's just not as smooth and slick as the others. You can tell he's never been in the political spotlight before.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Yeah I totally missed that part

Well he doesn't say it should be legal, but it shouldn't be government business. Presumably he feels someone else should enforce this illegality.

 

[Arwon]

Yeah OK I give up on reading these entrails.

 

[bhsup]

Well he doesn't say it should be legal, but it shouldn't be government business. Presumably he feels someone else should enforce this illegality.

Sharia Law???

 

[ParkCungHee]

Sharia Law???

Sounds like it.

 

[Crezth]

I didn't realize we were driving anywhere.

Again, you have the uncanny ability to completely miss or, probably more likely, ignore the point.

Unborn or not, it is offspring.

The distinction in it being unborn is what separates the fetus from the baby.

That's my point. Neither we, nor the unborn babies, can simply be called "lumps of tissue."

That's not true. The unborn babies are essentially lumps of tissue, parasiting off of the mother. Born, autonomous humans have intellect, emotions, and participate in the world at large. You could stop at intellect and emotions: fetuses have neither.

For a start, have you ever heard of "March of Dimes"?

Nope. I choose not to believe you as that matches up with my rhetoric better.

It was because it couldn't survive outside the womb. Otherwise, it would have died in the womb before birth.

What if it had stayed in the womb, then, for another, say, 30 years? Would that have helped it at all?

A fetus is a developing human, a baby is a developed human. Note the tense change. For simplicity's sake this has been shortened to unborn/born, although as I note and you pointed out the inconsistency in later, that is not an entirely accurate measurement. I retract that statement.

For starter's, a fetus has the ability to live outside of the womb some time before its actual scheduled birth date. While this could be considered immoral even if "life starts at conception" were pushed back 30 weeks or so, this is also without considering the goal of abortion...

Yes, but abortion has the goal of killing a fetus, whether it can live outside the womb or not.

...Which is another point you have missed dramatically. The goal of abortion is not to kill a fetus. An abortion is performed for any number of reasons, be it the safety of the mother, or out of concern for the unborn's ultimate living scenario. Abortion is never performed for the sheer joy of unbridled murder, it is always performed with deep consideration on the part of the mother. It's her choice, nobody else's, because it's her body, and in the interim between conception and birth, the unborn's only link whatsoever to the waking world is the woman. Because this isn't god-damn 1000 AD anymore, and women have rights (being humans and such), that doesn't mean she's no more than a vessel for more of God's children to enter the world.

Tell you what. In the words of George Carlin: "And speaking of my friends the Catholics, when John Cardinal O'Connor of New York and some of these other Cardinals and Bishops have experienced their first pregnancies and their first labor pains and they've raised a couple of children on minimum wage, then I'll be glad to hear what they have to say about abortion. I'm sure it'll be interesting."

By that metric, people in a coma can be killed as well, since they can't survive without special medical equipment.

Oh, you found us out. All us pro-choicers are, in fact, anti-life and we want to murder everyone.

Damnit! You must have us confused with another charming group of individuals.

 

[G-Max]

I'd like to remind everyone that this is NOT an abortion thread. This is the "let's all point at Herman Cain and laugh" thread.

Razor the Hedgehog -"Don't worry, she's not pregnet. I checked."

"Pregnet"?

Maybe he's a libertarian. They can be against abortion personally, and not believe it's the government's job to interfere with it.

Libertarians aren't the only ones who can believe that.

No abortion for 9 months, after which the conceived being has 9 minutes to pay a 9% sales tax on the medical bills to date or get put on death row.

The only person more confused about Herman Cain's positions then us is Herman Cain.

 

[El_Machinae]

I found the reference to the caterpillar to be useful. A caterpillar is very different from the butterfly. No one says they're not alive at either stage. During the caterpillar stage, they're very clearly not a butterfly, and vis versa. During the chrysalis stage, everything is iffy, because biology is always fuzzy at the edges.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Yeah, stupid people have degrees in mathematics and computer science all the time.

Apparently, some of them do. I run into completely incompetent programmers all the time. Cain keeps putting his foot in his mouth every time he opens it in public. This is a classic example. He can't even see an obvious fault in simple logic even when repeatedly pointed out to him. And working for the government isn't exactly proof to the contrary.

I wonder how much "affirmative action" help Cain got while attending college, gaining employment, and later being selected as a CEO.

 

[Cutlass]

Libertarians aren't the only ones who can believe that.

Just some libertarians and the liberals. Cain certainly isn't a liberal.