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History Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread VII

Discussion in 'World History' started by Plotinus, Sep 24, 2014.

  1. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

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    Well I thought because it was relatively recent only ~3,000 or so years ago, that some evidence should have been found about such a significant event in Egypt's history.
     
  2. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    There were some N.N. floods, though:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storegga_Slide

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_Bergen_Island

    There was Y-DNA "Adam" and mtDNA "Eve", though.

    Probably it wasn't.

    As for archaeological evidence - the Israelites in Egypt numbered some 35 thousand people.

    And Egypt had around 4 million inhabitants (see Appendix B), so they were a tiny minority.

    Significant in Egyptian history?

    From Egyptian perspective, a bunch of slaves escaped them. Not that significant. And Egyptian propaganda either stayed silent or lied about their failures, just to mention Ramesses II and his inconclusive campaign against the Hittites.
     
  3. r16

    r16 not deity

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    ı would say they declared only on Germany , but were involved in numbers against the Austrians in the air , no doubt due to the sizeable Italian presence in the US . La Guardia , a future mayor of New York was an airman in Italy and he called Italian assistance to units there as a racket . A USN airman was awarded with the Medal of Honour , the destroyer named after him was sunk in Midway .

    no clashes with the Ottomans , the mandate question arose from the thing that it was to be about all the Ottoman lands . Wilson , to placate the Allies aka the Colonialists , tried to limit it to a location that would be cheaper and do useful work in stopping the possible expansion of Communism while the US Military was an early "admirer" of the coming thing on Greeks and their puppetmasters . USN detachments clashed with Turkish advance guards in September 1922 , around Izmir . Aiming to discourage from entering the city , it has been reported as providing an escape route to Greek refugees , by mutual consent . Though at the height of this recent "secularism" it was reported that it was the USN that protected Greek landings on the islands during the Balkan Wars .
     
  4. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

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  5. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    You'd think so, yes.
     
  6. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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    I think the closer it got to the time it was written, the more authentic it becomes. But certainly all of Genesis and even through Joshua have a feel of an origin myth more than something based on reality. However, there's archaeological evidence that supports David and Solomon's existence and there are corroborating accounts by the time you get to Sennacherib's siege of Jerusalem. The Assyrian accounts differ, but they at least make it clear we aren't talking about a fictional event.
     
  7. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    At that time all people were foragers, and hunter-gatherers are often very mobile groups of people (especially if they hunt large fauna).

    For example famous Kennewick Man died near Kennewick, some 400 km from the nearest ocean (Pacific), yet while examining his bones scientists found out that during most of his life, his diet was rich in marine mammals. The nearest place where he could eat marine mammals was the Pacific coast.

    So he was buried far away from the place where he was born, or where he spent most of his life.

    BTW - old rumours that Kennewick Man was "European" are false. A closer examination shows similarities to the Ainu people of North-East Asia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people

    In seems that in Eurasian prehistory south-north and north-south back and forth migrations were frequent, cyclical, and depended on climate.

    When climate got warmer, they migrated north, when it got colder, they went back south. For example the Y-DNA haplogroup which is typical for modern South Indians (Dravidian-speakers) - R2 - descends from R. And a sample of R was found in Russian Siberia in a burial from ~24,000 years ago.

    So I would not be surprised if some part of ancestors of Near Easterners came down south-east from Doggerland, after it was flooded.

    By the way:

    The myth about the "great flood" is not Israelite in origin. Already the Akkadians and the Sumerians recorded that myth:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh_flood_myth

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atra-Hasis

    Sumerians were the first people who invented writing, and one of first things which they wrote down, was the "great flood" myth.

    So it had to be a very ancient oral tradition, which was later written down.
     
  8. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Super Moderator

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    The Old Testament isn't a single document. The historicity of one book doesn't really bear on that of the others. Certainly there's little reason to think that the Exodus was a real event, and indeed most of the material in the Pentateuch seems to be legendary, but that doesn't necessarily impinge on the historicity of other texts e.g. the books of Chronicles. However, all texts of this kind are going to have question marks over their historicity to some degree or another.
     
  9. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    I think that the non-Israeli considered opinion is that whilst David and Solomon may indeed have existed, they probably didn't exist in the fashion that the Bible describes, as that is more of an Arthurian style tale rather than what was more likely in existence at the time.
     
  10. Lohrenswald

    Lohrenswald 老任森林

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    Alright, so I know this is pretty low-brow history BUT

    Why did Hitler serve in the german army in the first world war if he was an austrian citizen?
     
  11. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_career_of_Adolf_Hitler
     
  12. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    Hitler explained this in "Mein Kampf" - here is an excerpt (my translation):

    "(...) In relatively early adolescence I had an opportunity to take part in a nationalistic struggle in old Austria. We had a school organization and we expressed our views using cornflowers and black-red-gold colours. We were saluting each other with 'Heil' and instead of 'Kaiserlied' we were singing, despite warnings and punishments, 'Deutschland über Alles'. This way, we young people were educating ourselves politically (...) I was not among the indifferent people and soon I became a fanatical German nationalist, but not in modern party-related understanding of this word. Development in this direction was in my case very fast, so fast that already when a 15 years old boy I could distinguish between dynastic 'patriotism', and national 'nationalism'. I understood the latter much better. Already as boys we knew, that this Austrian state did not show any affection for us, Germans. Our knowledge about methods of conduct of the Habsburgs was being confirmed each day by daily experiences. In the north and in the south the poison of alien races was devouring the flesh of our nation and even Vienna was gradually less and less resembling a German city. 'The Emperor's House' was becoming Czech where only that was possible; finally the hand of the goddess of everlasting justice and unrelenting vengeance killed the greatest enemy of the Germanness of Austria - Archduke Franz Ferdinand. He was killed by a bullet whom he had personally helped. After all, he was the main patron of the movement the goal of which was to turn Austria into a Slavic country. The embryo of the World War and indeed the total ruin of Germany were caused by fatal alliance of the young German Reich with the Austrian artificial state. (...) Since my earliest adolescence I was convinced, that the destruction of Austria is the necessary condition for the security of the German race. (...) The misfortune for the German race was especially the ruling House of Habsburg. The consequences of that was my passionate love of the German Austria and my deep hatred of the Austrian State. (...) Because the domination of the ethnic German element had been broken, the system served for games between particular nationalities. Generally the line of development was established against Germans. Especially from times when the Archduke, Franz Ferdinand, began to grow in strength, and he supported Czech ambitions. The future ruler of the monarchy attempted with use of all means to cause the process of De-Germanization. This is why often German settlements were being slowly but efficiently subjected to influence of foreign-speaking nations. In Lower Austria the process was much faster and many Czechs considered Vienna to be their own city. The main idea of that new Habsburg, whose family spoke Czech (wife of the Archduke was an ethnic Czech countess and in her family there were strong anti-German traditions), aimed at establishing in Central Europe a Slavic state with Catholic religion as a counter-weight to Orthodox Russia. That's how religion became once again involved in serving political concepts, which was frequent in Habsburg policies. (...) After the war of 1870 the House of Habsburg slowly, with premeditation and determination, started an effort leading to rooting out the dangerous German race - it was the goal of the Slavophile family of the emperor. (...)"

    In short - he despised Austrian monarchy and considered it an artificial state.
     
  13. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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    ^ Huh, I don't necessarily disagree with Hitler (at least on the broad point).

    Which is still better than what can be said about Exodus.
     
  14. daft

    daft The fargone

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    Only the intelligent are capable of being truly funny, characteristics you obviously lack.
    I leave this dumb comment/answer of yours without further reprisal.

    Moderator Action: Infracted for flaming.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  15. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    What do you mean?
     
  16. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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    The Austrian Empire was a very artificial state held together by pretty much the monarchy alone. Note, I'm not saying modern Austria is artificial, just that the Habsburg Empire was.
     
  17. poom3619

    poom3619 Ping Pang Poom!

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    The Austro-Hungary Empire in WW1 (with many people not mentioned) is ruled by
    Francis Joseph I, by the grace of God Emperor of Austria; Apostolic King of Hungary, King of Bohemia, Dalmatia, Croatia, Slavonia, Galicia, Lodomeria, Illyria; King of Jerusalem, etc.;
    Spoiler :
    Archduke of Austria; Grand Duke of Tuscany, Crakow; Duke of Lorraine, Salzburg, Styria, Carinthia, Carniola, the Bukovina; Grand Prince of Transylvania; Margrave of Moravia; Duke of the Upper & Lower Silesia, Modena, Parma, Piacenza, Guastalla, Oswiecin, Zator, Cieszyn, Friuli, Ragusa, Zara; Princely Count of Habsburg, Tyrol, Kyburg, Gorizia, Gradisca; Prince of Trent, Brixen; Margrave of the Upper & Lower Lusatia, in Istria; Count of Hohenems, Feldkirch, Bregenz, Sonnenberg, etc.; Lord of Triest, Kotor, the Wendish March; Grand Voivode of the Voivodship of Serbia etc. etc..
     
  18. jackelgull

    jackelgull An aberration of nature

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    Does anybody know why patriarchy has been the rule for most of history rather than an exception?
     
  19. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    Because men are usually bigger and stronger than women. And so can enforce it.
     
  20. Cheezy the Wiz

    Cheezy the Wiz Socialist In A Hurry

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    Because once property was established as a principle, the basis of the family was reoriented to center on father-right instead of mother-right, meaning that family identity, and thus right of inheritance, became centered on decent from a male, not decent from a female (a notable exception to this rule is Judaism, which has persisted due to explicitly religious reasons. Thus, women lost control of property, and thus wealth, and thus socio-economic power.

    It doesn't have so much to do with "lol menz r strongr" because that's not always the case, nor have women been kept in physical bondage for such an argument to matter. Men, in being the established power in society, have always in turn had a decisive hand in the formation of new social forms, and thus new forces of production have always given women the inferior role. Engels calls women "the first underclass" in Origins of the Family and this name is apt. In each social formation, women have been given, either by design or simply by male-centered indifference, the short end of the stick, and this has kept them down.

    It's only with the dawn of capitalism in the last 500 years or so that we've seen the rise of any kind of remotely coherent "feminism" arguing that woman are, should be, or are capable of being, equal to men in either physical or mental capacity. The growing strength of this movement has less to do with the growing strength of women during that period than it does the fact that increasing numbers of men found themselves part of the exact same political class as working women (which is a misnomer - women have always worked, and often harder than men): the proletariat, and thus found common cause where they would not have before. This gave the cause of women's liberation the breathing room it needed to adequately understand itself and mature into a socio-political force rather than the musings of a few rebel philosophers in their spare time.

    But even within capitalism, the manner of women's oppression is unique compared to both men as well as earlier periods of patriarchy: women are responsible for the reproduction of labor-value, both on the immediate as well as generational levels. However, they are also workers, and thus a constant battle ensues between capitalism's need to maximizer her labor for profit, but also the need to have the capacity to perform labor, both by her and her man, to be continually renewed so that it can be re-harvested. This renewal comes in the form of house-work, or all the things that are necessary in life in order to be able to return to work renewed for a new shift of adequate work: food, cleaning, laundry, upkeep, child care and rearing, etc.

    So the forces keeping women down are far more complex than "men be stronk." There are real material forces in both this and in past political systems that restrain women from ever breaking free from patriarchy as a sex while those systems remain intact.
     

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