General News Regarding China & Hong Kong

[EnglishEdward]

I am the one saying your post is so full of half-truths and poor intent that people should not engage with it seriously. The "facts" are not quite relevant and not quite wrong. They're an excellent piece of distraction that could waste huge amounts of time on the nitty gritty.

The last line is more a statement of intent than anything else.

That British Empire, hahah. "We're all in this together" in WW2 then you get assigned a position on a ranked list to get Windrushed.

Talk about distraction. You are 'whataboutism' ing to Windrush.

The people deported by the UK government Remainers in the Windrush scandal had spent the majority of their life in Britain.
The chinese inhabitants of Hong Kong have not. Many of them have never been to the UK; others only on brief visits as tourists.

 

[Senethro]

Britain is a very well defined term. It is an island in the Atlantic Ocean to the North West of the Euro-Asian continent.

The chinese inhabitants of Hong Kong were subjects of the British Empire.

They were never nationals of this island with the right of abode here.

You cannot be a national of an island. An island is a geographic feature, not a political one. You're doing this extremely deliberately now.

 

[EnglishEdward]

You want to tell that to the people in Iceland?

I suspect they would tell you that the island and the political identity are the same.

And that is pretty much the same with Britain and British.

 

[Samson]

You want to tell that to the people in Iceland?

I suspect they would tell you that the island and the political identity are the same.

And that is pretty much the same with Britain and British.

Not quite: Iceland contains about 30 minor islands, including the lightly populated Grímsey and the Vestmannaeyjar archipelago.

 

[EnglishEdward]

@Samson

OK, ""much" the same".

 

[Senethro]

You want to tell that to the people in Iceland?

I suspect they would tell you that the island and the political identity are the same.

And that is pretty much the same with Britain and British.

Ok I'm done now.

This has been the "truest" thing you've said here: "There is no reason why the fragment called Britain has a responsibility to house the populations of other fragments of the British Empire." But you've stated as the way things should be, without any actual justification, so it kind of is more what you desire than anything else. Its the signal to your fellow travelers. Everything else is various kinds of distraction.

PS calling GB a fragment as if its equal with other fragments of TBE is obviously silly and another distraction.

 

[EnglishEdward]

The onus is on the people who think that the fragment called Britain has the particular responsibility to house the
populations of other fragments that ought to justify that, rather than for me to justify the absence of the responsibility.

The fragments of the British Empire are certainly not equal in population, size or wealth.
For instance Australia and Canada are much larger and less densely populated.

It is however correct to describe Britain as a fragment of the former British Empire
rather than pretend it uniquely has responsibilities that it ought to, but can not deliver.

 

[Traitorfish]

In the universe that I live in, Hong Kong is not and never has been part of Britain.

That is a fact.

In the same sense that the Falklands have never been part of Britain. But if the Falklanders described themselves as "British", this would be relatively uncontroversial.

What could be different about the Hong Kongese, that should render a similar claim controversial?

We can but speculate.

 

[El_Machinae]

Surely, shouldn't that mainly be decided by whether they're citizens? Like, it's obvious. If HKers are being forced to give up their UK citizenship by the CCP, then that's surely a problem that Britain cares about yeah?

 

[Verbose]

Surely, shouldn't that mainly be decided by whether they're citizens? Like, it's obvious. If HKers are being forced to give up their UK citizenship by the CCP, then that's surely a problem that Britain cares about yeah?

Depends on how it wants to try to deal with China – rule-taker or rule-maker?

Turns out it actually is a distinct advantage still to be a member of the EU for small countries. If China tries to impose rules, they have to walk up to the EU as whole, and for now at least China still balks that doing that directly. It's too big a fight to pick. (They do work-around hassling, trying to hurt tourism etc. to indirectly target non-cooperative EU countries, but it has to be only indirect because China cannot specifically target with sanctions without brining in the whole of the EU – and it can't/won't do that yet.)

The whole thing might become an interesting object-lesson demonstrating the actual size in the world of the UK?

 

[Samson]

Next step? Go after the lawyers who defend the dissidents

A second Chinese lawyer who represented a Hong Kong pro-democracy activist has been stripped of his licence to practice, in a move that drew alarm from rights groups and condemnation from the United States.
Ren Quanniu, who represented one of 12 Hong Kong activists who allegedly tried to flee by boat to Taiwan, said on Tuesday that he had had his licence revoked by the Henan Provincial Justice Department.
Lu Siwei, who worked alongside Ren on the case, had his licence taken away last month.
Ren and Lu said that representing the members of the so-called “Hong Kong 12” was the trigger that stripped them of the right to practise.
The 12 activists attempted to flee Hong Kong after China imposed a sweeping national security law on the territory. They were caught at sea in August and after being held for months without access to family 10 of them were sentenced by a Shenzhen court in December to prison terms ranging from seven months to three years for crossing the border illegally and organising the escape. Two others, who were under the age of 18, were returned to the custody of the Hong Kong police.
Thousands of Hong Kong residents have fled the territory since Beijing imposed the security legislation last June to quell dissent in the semi-autonomous city. More than 90 people have been arrested for national security-related offences so far, according to Hong Kong Commissioner of Police Chris Tang and eight people have been charged, including the media tycoon Jimmy Lai, a prominent campaigner for democracy.
The Henan Judicial Department held a hearing on the licence revocation on Friday in Zhengzhou, the provincial capital, according to other lawyers who turned up to support Ren. They were not allowed into the hearing.
Ren was told that comments he made in court in a case in 2018 defending Falun Gong practitioners had caused a “negative impact on society,” according to a notice from the Henan Justice Department that he showed to the media.​

 

[Zardnaar]

Depends on how it wants to try to deal with China – rule-taker or rule-maker?

Turns out it actually is a distinct advantage still to be a member of the EU for small countries. If China tries to impose rules, they have to walk up to the EU as whole, and for now at least China still balks that doing that directly. It's too big a fight to pick. (They do work-around hassling, trying to hurt tourism etc. to indirectly target non-cooperative EU countries, but it has to be only indirect because China cannot specifically target with sanctions without brining in the whole of the EU – and it can't/won't do that yet.)

The whole thing might become an interesting object-lesson demonstrating the actual size in the world of the UK?

China's being screwing around with Australia.

If Canzuk ever happens it will be because of stuff like that.

If China offends everyone which they're doing USA/UK/EU telling them to F off isn't impossible.

 

[EnglishEdward]

In the same sense that the Falklands have never been part of Britain. But if the Falklanders described themselves as "British", this would be relatively uncontroversial.

What could be different about the Hong Kongese, that should render a similar claim controversial?

We can but speculate.

Apart from being another whataboutism, there is no need for speculation; because there are about ten
clear differences between the Falkland Islanders and inhabitants of Hong Kong, that you know full well.

Depends on how it wants to try to deal with China – rule-taker or rule-maker?

That is a false dilemma.

There is of course the sensible option of being independent and not doing as told by other countries and not telling other countries what to do.

The whole thing might become an interesting object-lesson demonstrating the actual size in the world of the UK?

The UK is about 1% of the world, and guess what its inhabitants know that.

The problem is grandstanding politicians first talk nonsense as they think
it is impressive rhetoric and then start to believe their own nonsense.

 

[Verbose]

That is a false dilemma.

There is of course the sensible option of being independent and not doing as told by other countries and not telling other countries what to do.

But that is not really the issue, is it? It's rather whether China feels it needs to give a damn, and what countries do if it doesn't?

China does not recognize the non-Chinese citizenship of people the CCP claim for itself. It just acts differently towards countries they have to give a damn about.

 

[EnglishEdward]

But that is not really the issue, is it? It's rather whether China feels it needs to give a damn, and what countries do if it doesn't?

Nevertheless I addressed your point. I suspect that at the moment, China is merely
mildly annoyed at the UK's stance largely putting it down to peculiar british eccentricity.
But Boris Johnson, Dominic Raab & UK Parliament may continue being self righteous.

I have accused others of whataboutism, so here is my whataboutism.

In 1939, Britain (& France) went to war with Germany to preserve Polish independence.
Yet at the end of 1944, Poland was firmly occupied by the red army and Stalin wan't lettng go.
The USA weren't going to start a third world war to evict the Russians, so the UK government
pragmatically recognised communist Poland.

@warpus regards that as a betrayal, but viewed realistically what alternative was there?
I rather think that pretending that the Polish government in exile in London was the true
Polish government would have merely annoyed the Russians and made things worse.

In the same way, it is better for the UK to recognise that Beijing rules HongKong and let the debate there
be about the degree of autonomy that the Beijing government could profitably grant chinese provnces.

China does not recognize the non-Chinese citizenship of people the CCP claim for itself.
It just acts differently towards countries they have to give a damn about.

In this respect, China is like Iran that does not recognise foreign citizenship for Iranians.

 

[Verbose]

In this respect, China is like Iran that does not recognise foreign citizenship for Iranians.

Sure, but not caring what Iran thinks or does comes with a different potential bill than doing the same with China.

 

[warpus]

In 1939, Britain (& France) went to war with Germany to preserve Polish independence.
Yet at the end of 1944, Poland was firmly occupied by the red army and Stalin wan't lettng go.
The USA weren't going to start a third world war to evict the Russians, so the UK government
pragmatically recognised communist Poland.

@warpus regards that as a betrayal, but viewed realistically what alternative was there?

It's not just those actions on their own, it's everything that happened, including not inviting any Polish officers to victory celebrations in London or elsewhere (while all other allies were invited). That was after Poles played such a significant role in the cracking of the Enigma, in the Battle of Britain, the invasion of Normandy, and in many other aspects of the war. All those Polish lives lost to fight for freedom.. and when the war was over, there was no freedom - only occupation by yet another empire... one that began its occupation with an execution of Polish intellectuals and those leaders who did not flee to the west, not to mention the destruction of Warsaw by German forces while the Russians looked on from across the river.

The west makes for an incompetent and self-serving ally, and that is something that Poles will likely never forget. An important lesson - you can't rely on London, Washington, or Paris - You have to look after your own defense and self interests, because if you don't, you might very well cease to exist. That is sort of burned in the Polish national psyche.

 

[red_elk]

not to mention the destruction of Warsaw by German forces while the Russians looked on from across the river.

If you guys consider Russians as occupants, then don't complain they aren't so eager to fight and die for you.
And if Russians were allies, you should probably cooperate and listen to Stalin's warning when he directly said to Mikolaychik that Red Army is unable to liberate Warsaw in August. Because Germans brought fresh reinforcements and Soviet advance run out of steam after Bagration.

 

[The Civs 6]

It's not just those actions on their own, it's everything that happened, including not inviting any Polish officers to victory celebrations in London or elsewhere (while all other allies were invited). That was after Poles played such a significant role in the cracking of the Enigma, in the Battle of Britain, the invasion of Normandy, and in many other aspects of the war. All those Polish lives lost to fight for freedom.. and when the war was over, there was no freedom - only occupation by yet another empire... one that began its occupation with an execution of Polish intellectuals and those leaders who did not flee to the west, not to mention the destruction of Warsaw by German forces while the Russians looked on from across the river.

The west makes for an incompetent and self-serving ally, and that is something that Poles will likely never forget. An important lesson - you can't rely on London, Washington, or Paris - You have to look after your own defense and self interests, because if you don't, you might very well cease to exist. That is sort of burned in the Polish national psyche.

Then what kind of ally does that make Poland?

 

[warpus]

Then what kind of ally does that make Poland?

What kind of ally was Poland during WW2? I mean, you can look this up and read up on all the contributions Poland made to the war. I even listed some of them in my post.

@red_elk how else to call an invading army which then stays around and occupies the whole country, refusing to leave, murdering the existing leadership and installing their own puppet government?