House of Reps and Obama kill SOPA

[Ayn Rand]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that the huge amount of corporate pressure by companies notorious for abusing IP right has nothing to do with it. If only there was no government, they would suddendly become charity works and never try to screw over consumers, I'm sure.

No no, it's all the government's fault - at least for the ideologically blind.

Of course corporations are a serious part of the problem - but they are one part among many.

My point was that it doesn't seem to be any particular change in IP laws or state attitudes to IP laws that have precipitated these problems, but the incompatibility with (or, from their perspective, insufficiency of) these laws in a world of modern communications technology. The legislation and state action that we see is as far as I can tell responsive, an attempt to buttress an existing system of IP, rather than to pursue a massive extension of it. If it seems that way, it's because we've all spent so long dwelling in the gap between the strict theory and loose reality of intellectual property; this just represents the closing of the gap towards the former.

So you return to your well-established theme that IP laws are inherently problematic and that they will only become more so in the future as the inherent tendency manifests itself in the face of new technology. While that is a powerful argument, it is difficult to impose a sledgehammer like SOPA through the more nuanced conventional court system with fair trials, presentation of evidence, balanced consideration of both sides etc etc.

The fact that government now rents - nay, whores - itself out to the highest bidder and crafts pre-emptive regulatory legislation as a service to help competitors attack one another for market share, is a serious problem-multiplier in itself. There is much to question in the way the theory-reality gap is being closed, and on whose behalf. This is a game of winners and losers, not a game of justice or legal niceties regarding fair property ownership and use.

But then you say that the court approach will not work and that this legislation is the only effective way to police this kind of IP. If that is true, then a lot of re-thinking needs to be done and not just about the nature of IP but about the potential kind of government and society we will move into - either by force or by choice. I daresay you will posit our alternatives as being a dichotomy between either a dilution of intellectual property rights or else the implicit acceptance of some kind of developing IP fascism?

 

[Traitorfish]

So you return to your well-established theme that IP laws are inherently problematic and that they will only become more so in the future as the inherent tendency manifests itself in the face of new technology. While that is a powerful argument, it is difficult to impose a sledgehammer like SOPA through the more nuanced conventional court system with fair trials, presentation of evidence, balanced consideration of both sides etc etc.

The fact that government now rents - nay, whores - itself out to the highest bidder and crafts pre-emptive regulatory legislation as a service to help competitors attack one another for market share, is a serious problem-multiplier in itself. There is much to question in the way the theory-reality gap is being closed, and on whose behalf. This is a game of winners and losers, not a game of justice or legal niceties regarding fair property ownership and use.

But then you say that the court approach will not work and that this legislation is the only effective way to police this kind of IP. If that is true, then a lot of re-thinking needs to be done and not just about the nature of IP but about the potential kind of government and society we will move into - either by force or by choice. I daresay you will posit our alternatives as being a dichotomy between either a dilution of intellectual property rights or else the implicit acceptance of some kind of developing IP fascism?

I'm not sure what this has to do with my point, which is that the actual terms of IP law hasn't changed substantially in most Western countries, it's more about enforcement about the capacities to lent to those enforcing it. It's always been illegal to, say, use a copyrighted photo as your Facebook profile image, it's just that there hasn't been an effective way to do anything about it. So they're trying to invent some. So, yes, I suppose you could pose that as "dilution of IP vs IP fascism", but the logic by which I'm getting there is a bit difference.

 

[Akka]

Of course corporations are a serious part of the problem - but they are one part among many.

Actually they are the main, if not only, one.

Feel free to find an abuse of IP rights in order to screw the public that is not tied in a way or another to a corporation.

 

[Ayn Rand]

Actually they are the main, if not only, one.

Feel free to find an abuse of IP rights in order to screw the public that is not tied in a way or another to a corporation.

Sure, just as soon as you find one that is not tied in some way or another to a government

Damn you complexity - why you being all complex!!

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

I have a friend whose copyright was actually violated by a company. He actually won against them but they took revenge. I won't go into more detail as it's kind of private and I'm not sure I should be talking about it.

 

[Atlas14]

Percent of American voters that will vote Republican or Democrat in 2012, keeping the same people in power that lacked well-planned solutions at the time of their election, and lack the open-mindedness, logic, and education to solve current, ever-changing problems...the same people that propose serious, liberty-threatening legislation every single day of their career...probably around 99%.

I mean really people...I oppose SOPA as much as the rest of you, but open your eyes to what the real problem is...it's you. You elect these people, you continue to vote in the same two-party system that is the very definition of oppression. Yes, if SOPA is really killed, you'll have saved your LOLcats, etc, but you'll be back to the same problem as before.

Boycott all you want, camp out in DC with nothing but your crusty underwear, raw Ball Park hotdogs, and acoustic guitar all you want, write your Congressman's secretary's secretary a super cereal nasty letter about how much you disapprove of what is happening in this country. Nothing will change as long as you keep voting for Republicans and Democrats.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

Percent of American voters that will vote Republican or Democrat in 2012, keeping the same people in power that lacked well-planned solutions at the time of their election, and lack the open-mindedness, logic, and education to solve current, ever-changing problems...the same people that propose serious, liberty-threatening legislation every single day of their career...probably around 99%.

I mean really people...I oppose SOPA as much as the rest of you, but open your eyes to what the real problem is...it's you. You elect these people, you continue to vote in the same two-party system that is the very definition of oppression. Yes, if SOPA is really killed, you'll have saved your LOLcats, etc, but you'll be back to the same problem as before.

Boycott all you want, camp out in DC with nothing but your crusty underwear, raw Ball Park hotdogs, and acoustic guitar all you want, write your Congressman's secretary's secretary a super cereal nasty letter about how much you disapprove of what is happening in this country. Nothing will change as long as you keep voting for Republicans and Democrats.

I did not realize I elected for the U.S. government Overgeneralizations are not good

 

[GamezRule]

I did not realize I elected for the U.S. government Overgeneralizations are not good

Seriously?

 

[Atlas14]

I did not realize I elected for the U.S. government Overgeneralizations are not good

It was directed towards Americans, you obviously have an entirely different voting system. Mere protesting in your case is an appropriate form of response.

 

[innonimatu]

If we drop the entire concept of intellectual property, what alternative do you propose?

That is the alternative: abolition. There is no need for replacing it worth anything else. No one demanded an alternative to slavery as a prerequisite to abolish it either!

Abolish it and alternatives will arise. In fact they are already around: lots of people selling services instead of relying on copyright privileges to extract future rents, lots of people sharing stuff and improving it just because they have a use for it. But copyright remains as a blocking force preventing more use and reuse of work already done, preventing that model from taking over entirely. Copyright and patents lead to unnecessary duplication of work and very often development of suboptimal solutions for the sake of circumventing knowledge areas and techniques fenced-off through patents. For example, if someone had patented TCP/IP or HTML the Internet might very well have ended up balkanized, split among different "islands" controlled by different companies or states, requiring some form of "translation" for interoperation, and the payment of fees to get it. Patents delay technological progress.

My point was that it doesn't seem to be any particular change in IP laws or state attitudes to IP laws that have precipitated these problems, but the incompatibility with (or, from their perspective, insufficiency of) these laws in a world of modern communications technology. The legislation and state action that we see is as far as I can tell responsive, an attempt to buttress an existing system of IP, rather than to pursue a massive extension of it. If it seems that way, it's because we've all spent so long dwelling in the gap between the strict theory and loose reality of intellectual property; this just represents the closing of the gap towards the former.

Yes, those laws have always been regarded as abusive and widely broken. Patents were routinely ignored in any country having to catch up with industrial leaders. Were also routinely ignored inside a country (are still?) until the holder of the patent actually got powerful enough to have the state move gains its competitors.

Copyright was even more ignored. Only the difficulty of copying stuff prevented individual owners of the physical medium of a work from copying it. Which left only competitors in the same business (other book printers, for example, or other record makers) to police, and make the enforcement of those monopolies possible. AS soon as the means to easily copy things came up (photocopiers, tape, etc) people went on doing what they always regarded as natural: copying and sharing the so-called "intellectual property". Then came the more draconian laws, repeated failures...

 

[choxorn]

So, for anybody who hasn't heard, Megaupload was just taken down... le sigh.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

Theres two threads about it

 

[kramerfan86]

Percent of American voters that will vote Republican or Democrat in 2012, keeping the same people in power that lacked well-planned solutions at the time of their election, and lack the open-mindedness, logic, and education to solve current, ever-changing problems...the same people that propose serious, liberty-threatening legislation every single day of their career...probably around 99%.

I mean really people...I oppose SOPA as much as the rest of you, but open your eyes to what the real problem is...it's you. You elect these people, you continue to vote in the same two-party system that is the very definition of oppression. Yes, if SOPA is really killed, you'll have saved your LOLcats, etc, but you'll be back to the same problem as before.

Boycott all you want, camp out in DC with nothing but your crusty underwear, raw Ball Park hotdogs, and acoustic guitar all you want, write your Congressman's secretary's secretary a super cereal nasty letter about how much you disapprove of what is happening in this country. Nothing will change as long as you keep voting for Republicans and Democrats.

That's all well and good, but you realize in many elections on many ballots there IS no third party. Plus frankly America has no real good centrist or sane third party. Most of our third parties are either so far to the left they make democrats look conservative or so far to the right they make conservatives look liberal. Those arent exactly great alternative options.

 

[bombshoo]

It was directed towards Americans, you obviously have an entirely different voting system. Mere protesting in your case is an appropriate form of response.

The Canadians always get the easy way out of things.

 

[Akka]

Sure, just as soon as you find one that is not tied in some way or another to a government

Damn you complexity - why you being all complex!!

Err...
About every single of the intrusive DRM have nothing involving the government, and are entirely created by corporations ?

In fact, about every single abuse on IP save the handful of laws looking to increase even further the IP rights, are made directly by corporation and not the government ?

Seriously, you should not be the one throwing "ideologically blind" when you're very obviously the biggest example of it...

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

 

[Ayn Rand]

Err...
About every single of the intrusive DRM have nothing involving the government, and are entirely created by corporations ?

In fact, about every single abuse on IP save the handful of laws looking to increase even further the IP rights, are made directly by corporation and not the government ?

Seriously, you should not be the one throwing "ideologically blind" when you're very obviously the biggest example of it...

Oh Akka, don't you find that it's... well... dull to go around in circles like this? I'm only saying that government plays some role.

For example - Megaupload was taken down yesterday. Who enforced that? T'was the FBI - a government agency. Thus, the government is involved in some way.

Far from suggesting that these roles are obvious, simple or stereotyped, I merely made the suggestion that we analyse and question them. Is this too much? Must you cling limply to your strawman attack protocol? I know that the corporations play a role - but the World is a complex place, each case is different, the situation changes constantly, multiple dynamic forces make variable inputs in a constantly changing system of feedback and adjustment... so please stop crying out that I am some sort of brainwashed free-marketeer because I merely questioned the role of the precious government [may its name forever be sacred].

 

[Tufio]

Most of our third parties are either so far to the left they make democrats look conservative

And they are so.

You vote the maybe-moderate right or the extreme right.

 

[Arakhor]

Zing!

 

[Crezth]

BTW, I remember someone posted a video with a nice illustration of the creative process, and how productivity in intellectual jobs was negatively affected by monetary rewards, but positively affected by many other things (like making a difference, being free to think and not constrained by commercial limits, and so on).

For reference's sake, here's that video:


Link to video.