How much is enough when disciplining a child?

[Padma]

I spanked my kids when they were little; I spank my grandkids, if needed. I understand where MobBoss is coming from. El_Machinae seems to understand how it works.

And a quote from another site I visit:

I have yet to spank a spoiled brat (well, a child, anyway ) but I once endevoured to improve the general tone of a dysfunctional family. T'was like this: <Poster> stands in the local supermarket checkout line after work. In front of him, there's a punk, bubble-gum chewing working class mother flipping through the rags, while her charming five-or-so year old offspring is entertaining himself by repeatedly ramming the trolley into the senior citizen who stands in front of them. Since the old lady looks to feeble to do much about it, <Poster> rips away the rag and tells the punk ***** to deal with her kid. At this, the punk ***** informs the whole shop at the top of her voice that she will do nothing, NOTHING, SINCE HER PRECIOUS CHILD WILL HAVE A FREE UPBRINGING! <Poster> is stunned by the sheer inanity of this for a moment, but then he reaches into her trolley, grabs a Heinz ketchup bottle (never let it be said Kerry's wife isn't good for something!), upends said bottle over the punk ***** and gives it a mighty squeeze. Predictably enough, the punk ***** ends up looking like something right outta a horror movie, with ketchup on top. Grinning, <Poster> informs her that HE had a FREE UPBRINING too.

Interestinly enough, every woman I ever told this story seems to think it qualifies me for fatherhood.

 

[Elrohir]

I associate spanking with a sexual activity so its probaly a bad idea....Spanking does have a sexual effect BTW. Blood rushes in that area causing sexual arousal....

I don't recall being aroused after being spanked. I recall having a butt that hurt.

Hilarious Padma. Simply hilarious.

 

[.Shane.]

I spanked my kids when they were little; I spank my grandkids, if needed. I understand where MobBoss is coming from. El_Machinae seems to understand how it works.

And a quote from another site I visit:

Except that's one of those made up stories that people email around to their friends to try and show their moral rightness or whatever it is they feel smug about.

 

[Paalikles]

Padma, I am not questioning the fact that being firm and consistent is a good thing, but do you really think spanking is superior to every other alternative?

it seems to me that the spanking advocates (funny name) seem to think that either you spank or you let your children have "free upbringing", essentially meaning you as a parent let them do what they want.

I consider these two alternatives extremes - and (much like Christians believe in something which they cannot prove exists) I am convinced that there are ways which you can both achieve similar or equivalent results (children behaving like you intend them to) without using physical punishment/violence.

It would be rather idiotic to let your children do what they want. But it would also be equally stupid to let your children know fear through spanking.

 

[silver 2039]

I don't recall being aroused after being spanked. I recall having a butt that hurt.

It would depend on the age perhaps. However when spanking occurs blood rushes to the genital areas, causing pleasure which is at the same time combined with pain. The child associates the pain with pleasure and can possibly develope sexual fetishes around spanking and BDSM and such.

http://www.nospank.net/sexdngrs.htm
http://www.naturalchild.com/jan_hunt/tenreasons.html

Buttocks are a sexual zone

Like women&#8217;s breasts, the buttocks are a sexual or erogenous part of the human anatomy, even though they are not actually sex organs. This is why baring one&#8217;s buttocks in public is considered indecent as well as unlawful and why their exposure in movies or on television constitutes nudity. It is also why someone who uninvitedly fondles another person&#8217;s buttocks is treated by law as a sexual offender. The sexual nature of the buttocks is explained not only by their proximity to the genitals, but also by their high concentration of nerve endings which lead directly to sexual nerve centers. Hence, the buttocks are a major locus of sexual signals.

Children are sexual beings

The sexuality of the buttocks is significant not just to adults, but to children as well. Even though they are sexually immature and without an active sex drive, children are from birth neurologically complete sexual beings who are capable of experiencing erotic sensation. The existence of pedophiles, furthermore, means that children can also become the targets of sexual intentions. As much as we might like to imagine childhood as an innocent, carefree world beyond the influence of sexuality, we do children a disservice if we fail to recognize that they too have erogenous zones which deserve consideration and respect.

8. Spanking on the buttocks, an erogenous zone in childhood, can create in the child's mind an association between pain and sexual pleasure, and lead to difficulties in adulthood. "Spanking wanted" ads in alternative newspapers attest to the sad consequences of this confusion of pain and pleasure. If a child receives little parental attention except when being punished, this will further merge the concepts of pain and pleasure in the child's mind. A child in this situation will have little self-esteem, believing he deserves nothing better.

 

[Till]

Except that's one of those made up stories that people email around to their friends to try and show their moral rightness or whatever it is they feel smug about.

I am not trying to say that you are wrong, but do you have a link (or did you get it in an email personally)? I googled for it, but couldn't find anything.

 

[IglooDame]

It would depend on the age perhaps. However when spanking occurs blood rushes to the genital areas, causing pleasure which is at the same time combined with pain. The child associates the pain with pleasure and can possibly develope sexual fetishes around spanking and BDSM and such.

http://www.nospank.net/sexdngrs.htm
http://www.naturalchild.com/jan_hunt/tenreasons.html

Jeez man, you're not supposed to hit the kids in the sweet spot!!

 

[.Shane.]

I am not trying to say that you are wrong, but do you have a link (or did you get it in an email personally)? I googled for it, but couldn't find anything.

I have a cousin, well, she's my mother's cousin, so I guess that makes here my 2nd cousin? Cousin once removed?

Anyway, she sends me stuff like this all the time. I'm constantly sending her to snopes or writing long replies as to why the story is obviously made up. But she never gets it. One thing I notice a lot is that these things are often variations on each other. Like the detail will be changed. For instance, when this email circulates in 2008, the reference to "Kerry's wife" and ketchup will be changed and some other self-serving reference will be inserted.

Often, people will post these stories in forums and claim they saw it themselves or "my brother saw this", and then, of course, you find out its just an email someone made up. They're easy to spot also because they always have this thinly veiled moral smugness which belies the intent to try and discredit a point of view.

If you wanted to pay me for my time, I could easily write 5 of these kind of silly anecdotes in an hour. Then we can post them all over the internet as "true" and "something I saw today" and then see if any of them take hold and eventually turn into something you get emailed. I've always wanted to do that. Make up some ridiculous internet story and see how long it takes for it to actually be sent to me.

oh, and btw, I'm not saying Padme didn't see it in another forum, simply that its not an original story.
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More on topic... to spank or not to spank.... I think you can get the desired results w/out doing it, and we don't practice it, but I don't fault those who use it when the kids are wee.

 

[IglooDame]

I just found this, from Silver's link:

“Spare the rod and spoil the child”, though much quoted, is in fact a misinterpretation of Biblical teaching. While the “rod” is mentioned many times in the Bible, it is only in the Book of Proverbs that this word is used in connection with parenting. The book of Proverbs is attributed to Solomon, an extremely cruel man whose harsh methods of discipline led his own son, Rehoboam, to become a tyrannical and oppressive dictator who only narrowly escaped being stoned to death for his cruelty. In the Bible there is no support for harsh discipline outside of Solomon’s Proverbs. By contrast, the writings in the Gospels, the most important books in the Bible for Christians, contain the teachings of Jesus Christ, who urged mercy, forgiveness, humility, and non-violence. Jesus saw children as being close to God, and urged love, never punishment.

So... ummm...

 

[Elrohir]

It would depend on the age perhaps. However when spanking occurs blood rushes to the genital areas, causing pleasure which is at the same time combined with pain. The child associates the pain with pleasure and can possibly develope sexual fetishes around spanking and BDSM and such.

I was spanked until I was about, well, 10 or so I guess. I don't recall being aroused, and I'm not into BDSM.

 

[Paalikles]

Proverbs is Old Testament, no?


Yeah, that is a good part of the Bible to follow...

 

[Padma]

@.Shane.: We questioned the poster on this, and he admits he embellished a little (e.g., he doubts it was Heinz, he just threw that in for the gratuitous knock on Kerry). He swears that the main story is true though, and we have no reason to doubt him.

@Paalikles: Spanking is not superior to everything, at all times. But the younger a child is, the more effective is a short, sharp punishment. By the time they can reason (around 6 - 7 yrs old), spanking is pretty much gone from the picture altogether.

 

[Rambuchan]

@Paalikles: Spanking is not superior to everything, at all times. But the younger a child is, the more effective is a short, sharp punishment. By the time they can reason (around 6 - 7 yrs old), spanking is pretty much gone from the picture altogether.

When going to war with a nation, nuking the hell out of them with multiple hits is "the more effective" and it's "short and sharp". But it's not always followed.

When people have a dispute, the best way to solve it really would be to just kill the other party. No dispute then. But that course is rarely followed either.

There's a good reason for all this. And the same applies for dishing out violence to children.

It may be "the more effective" method, but it's certainly not the most beneficial. I understand where you're all coming from when saying that this method work, but this is a dated view of raising children quite frankly. Plenty more ways to show a kid where the boundaries of acceptable behaviour lie.

"Spare the rod, and you might both learn something more about each other and yourselves".

 

[Mathilda]

No, raising kids isn't easy and I certainly have changed my views about numerous things with the experience.
I haven't changed my views about spanking though, I still regard it as a bad option.
Plenty of posters have expressed this rather eloquently, so just put me down for the no panking doesn't mean free upbringing crowd.

btw, I don't believe the ketchup story, as them bottles have that seal that you have to remove before the ketchup comes out.

 

[Padma]

Ram: I agree with you in general. But when the other person is too young to grasp any concept of reasoning, you employ other methods....

 

[IglooDame]

With all the discussion about treating children like animals, I wonder if shooting the child in the face with a squirt gun would be preferable to spanking. It certainly seems to work wonders for disciplining my cats.

 

[El_Machinae]

I did that: and now my kids curl at my feet when I'm reading or watching TV, because they like the quality time.

 

[.Shane.]

@.Shane.: We questioned the poster on this, and he admits he embellished a little (e.g., he doubts it was Heinz, he just threw that in for the gratuitous knock on Kerry). He swears that the main story is true though, and we have no reason to doubt him.

TBH, I think that's how a lot of these get started. A rather innocently told story, then someone sees the chance to add to it for their own reasons and, voila, you have an internet version of the telephone game.

@Paalikles: Spanking is not superior to everything, at all times. But the younger a child is, the more effective is a short, sharp punishment. By the time they can reason (around 6 - 7 yrs old), spanking is pretty much gone from the picture altogether.

Right. We have 3 under 6 years, and have avoided spanking, however, we don't kid ourselves that you can reason w/ a 3 year old.

 

[Narz]

Ram: I agree with you in general. But when the other person is too young to grasp any concept of reasoning, you employ other methods....

A child can understand the word "no" at a very early age. A child can understand dissapproval (ideally of his actions, not him as a person) even earlier. I don't think "other methods" are necessary at any age.

Also, by definition, if a child is "incapable of reason" then he will be incapable of reasoning out why he is getting hit. All he will remember is getting hit.

Kind of like when you yell at someone and they tune out. By the time you're done they've barely heard what you've said, all they know is that they don't like you (or themselves) very much. All abuse is the same like that. And while it may produce some behavioral results it does so at a high cost to both parties.

 

[The 777 Hoax]

That story was hilarious, Padma!

When I have children, I won't spank them. Taking away certain privelages seemed to work for me. I wasn't spanked.

Now, I am a Christian, and I understand that the Bible says to use the "rod of correction" to drive foolishness away from the heart of a child, but that doesn't necissarily mean spanking them. Punishing them in a different way can be just as effective.