Ah, now that is a debate. However I think for the purposes of the thread, your circumstances of birth are down to luck.
How much of your success has come from luck?
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Ah, now that is a debate. However I think for the purposes of the thread, your circumstances of birth are down to luck.
aelf
Ashen One
Winning the lottery isn't luck either, then. You couldn't have won the lottery if you didn't buy a ticket.
Luck, both good and bad have had a fairly significant impact on my success and lack of success, though skill & initiative interplayed to make the situation better or worse than it otherwise would have been.
Pretty good birth luck - born a white male in the Republic of Texas. Reasonably intelligent, especially for a Texan (don't know if that is good or bad luck since I have stayed in Texas which is kind of anti-intellectual).
Pretty lousy luck as to timing of both my undergrad and law school graduations. Undergrad was in August 1990 at the start of the Bush I recession. I am largely to blame for the job hunt struggles because I hadn't prepared for it. I was expecting to get into law school, but didn't (thanks to bad grades which were clearly due to laziness), so I had not taken steps necessary to land a decent job. Up until 1990, this would not have been much of a problem because a college degree still carried enough weight that a reasonably diligent job search would land you a job worthy of the degree. In a recession, even back then, that is less true.
Fast forward to law school - which I had some good luck in getting into a better school than my grades merited (thanks also to an elite LSAT score and a good personal statement). First year grades used to mean very much only so far as getting a prestige job out of law school (big firm, judicial clerkship, decent Federal position, initial gig at the important prosecutor's offices). Non-elite grades generally meant a lesser job out of law school, but still one as a lawyer.
I got middling grades the first year (my fault - less lazy about class attendance, but still not as diligent with my studies as I should have been). Buckled down and had two awesome semesters in the 4th and 5th semesters - with my best grades all coming in classes that were business related (a few tax courses, international business transactions, antitrust, banking law, commercial transactions, etc.). That normally would have been enough to land me a gig at a decent mid-size law firm in my city. Unfortunately, the year before I graduated, the biggest law firm in Dallas went under and for the first time in their history, the other big firms were downsizing by layoffs. That flooded the market with lawyers with big firm experience and thus the firms that would have otherwise been most likely to hire me were instead taking on experienced big firm lawyers in need of a gig. 1994-95 were the worst years to be getting out of law school until recently (it has been ugly since about 2007 or 2008). Beginning in about 1996 or 1997, the dot com boom made it a lot easier to get a law job coming out of law school (but not easier if you had graduated earlier and not secured a gig) and that bull market for hiring lasted until about 2006 or 2007.
I had financial issues that prevented me from getting my license (though if I would have gotten on with a firm these issues would have been cured in time for me to get my license as expected). I wandered around the job market as an odd duck, mainly working a lot of temp stuff, but with a couple of years at a big bank. In 2003, I got hired by a small company (about 40 employees) as a software tester. The owners knew of my law degree and started giving me legal work as they had no need for a full time lawyer, but had some projects that needed to be done.
In early 2004, I decided to try to get my license. I needed to convince the Board of Law Examiners that I was turning my financial issues around. The biggest obstacle was my student loans which were in default and they wanted bigger payments than I could afford. As luck would have it, just as I was needing to start making payments, my loans got moved to the Department of Education and I was able to start a payment program at an affordable amount.
My goal was to get one of the 3 highest scores in the state on the Bar Eam as the top 3 are publically recognized and that would give me a shot a decent firm. Anything less would mean I would have a license, but the 10 year gap between gradution and license meant I was pretty unmarketable for most law jobs. I studied very hard for the bar from February 2004 to July 2005 and got close to finishing in the top 3 (my multistate score was the exact same as the guy that scored the highest overall the year before and my overall score was very close to his) and based on a typical bell curve, my score probably put me in the top 10, with 4th not being out of the question.
This was probably good for me overall. If I had gotten a law job at that point, I could have easily flamed out by now. Instead, my then current company gave me a decent raise and nice title. When they bought the land to build their new headquarters, we cut a deal for me to start my own practice out of their new headquarters building. The deal was foundational to me being able to build my initial client base. Having my own practice is probably ideal for me and it took a weird combination of bad and good luck for that to happen. Skill and initiative (and lack thereof) also played a role, but there were three key good luck things that happened that put me where I am today. Otherwise, I might still be temping around in non-law jobs to this day.
Pretty good birth luck - born a white male in the Republic of Texas. Reasonably intelligent, especially for a Texan (don't know if that is good or bad luck since I have stayed in Texas which is kind of anti-intellectual).
Pretty lousy luck as to timing of both my undergrad and law school graduations. Undergrad was in August 1990 at the start of the Bush I recession. I am largely to blame for the job hunt struggles because I hadn't prepared for it. I was expecting to get into law school, but didn't (thanks to bad grades which were clearly due to laziness), so I had not taken steps necessary to land a decent job. Up until 1990, this would not have been much of a problem because a college degree still carried enough weight that a reasonably diligent job search would land you a job worthy of the degree. In a recession, even back then, that is less true.
Fast forward to law school - which I had some good luck in getting into a better school than my grades merited (thanks also to an elite LSAT score and a good personal statement). First year grades used to mean very much only so far as getting a prestige job out of law school (big firm, judicial clerkship, decent Federal position, initial gig at the important prosecutor's offices). Non-elite grades generally meant a lesser job out of law school, but still one as a lawyer.
I got middling grades the first year (my fault - less lazy about class attendance, but still not as diligent with my studies as I should have been). Buckled down and had two awesome semesters in the 4th and 5th semesters - with my best grades all coming in classes that were business related (a few tax courses, international business transactions, antitrust, banking law, commercial transactions, etc.). That normally would have been enough to land me a gig at a decent mid-size law firm in my city. Unfortunately, the year before I graduated, the biggest law firm in Dallas went under and for the first time in their history, the other big firms were downsizing by layoffs. That flooded the market with lawyers with big firm experience and thus the firms that would have otherwise been most likely to hire me were instead taking on experienced big firm lawyers in need of a gig. 1994-95 were the worst years to be getting out of law school until recently (it has been ugly since about 2007 or 2008). Beginning in about 1996 or 1997, the dot com boom made it a lot easier to get a law job coming out of law school (but not easier if you had graduated earlier and not secured a gig) and that bull market for hiring lasted until about 2006 or 2007.
I had financial issues that prevented me from getting my license (though if I would have gotten on with a firm these issues would have been cured in time for me to get my license as expected). I wandered around the job market as an odd duck, mainly working a lot of temp stuff, but with a couple of years at a big bank. In 2003, I got hired by a small company (about 40 employees) as a software tester. The owners knew of my law degree and started giving me legal work as they had no need for a full time lawyer, but had some projects that needed to be done.
In early 2004, I decided to try to get my license. I needed to convince the Board of Law Examiners that I was turning my financial issues around. The biggest obstacle was my student loans which were in default and they wanted bigger payments than I could afford. As luck would have it, just as I was needing to start making payments, my loans got moved to the Department of Education and I was able to start a payment program at an affordable amount.
My goal was to get one of the 3 highest scores in the state on the Bar Eam as the top 3 are publically recognized and that would give me a shot a decent firm. Anything less would mean I would have a license, but the 10 year gap between gradution and license meant I was pretty unmarketable for most law jobs. I studied very hard for the bar from February 2004 to July 2005 and got close to finishing in the top 3 (my multistate score was the exact same as the guy that scored the highest overall the year before and my overall score was very close to his) and based on a typical bell curve, my score probably put me in the top 10, with 4th not being out of the question.
This was probably good for me overall. If I had gotten a law job at that point, I could have easily flamed out by now. Instead, my then current company gave me a decent raise and nice title. When they bought the land to build their new headquarters, we cut a deal for me to start my own practice out of their new headquarters building. The deal was foundational to me being able to build my initial client base. Having my own practice is probably ideal for me and it took a weird combination of bad and good luck for that to happen. Skill and initiative (and lack thereof) also played a role, but there were three key good luck things that happened that put me where I am today. Otherwise, I might still be temping around in non-law jobs to this day.
That's not what he's saying - poor attempt at a bite.
aelf
Ashen One
I guess I might not be quoting the right poster. I'm directing it more towards Syterion's sentiments, which I'm only guessing he shares.
In any case, I'm not sure his point really refutes the notion that the circumstances to which I was born are the products of chance. The idea that I could have been born in Africa is of course purely hypothetical anyway.
The problem is that it's very tricky to set out what he's going on about in a way you'll understand it without assuming the existance of souls and such like. Essentially the argument is that there's hundreds of children being born every day, in as varied circumstances as you can imagine, and it's just pot luck that 'you' ended up being one of those born to a reasonably affluent first-world family rather than one born to a Russian peasant in 1704. Therefore, you are lucky to be in the situation in which you are.
aelf
Ashen One
It's hypothetical, therefore there's no need to metaphysically set out certain conditions for the scenario to actually work in reality. "I could have been born in Africa" is merely a thought exercise that illustrates the fact that you don't choose to be born to a particular set of circumstances. I think that fact is fairly self-evident. As to whether it should be attributed to luck, that's another question.
Syterion
Voodoo Economist
Part of who you are is from your genes from your parents. You are a product of your parents and you could only have been born from them and probably where they are, which is not a product of chance. It is uncontrollable by you, but it's not random.
aelf
Ashen One
Is luck random? Maybe the answer can be better imagined through another question: Is winning the lottery random?
It's random for those who play, yeah. But being born isn't like a lottery. There's not some abstract "you" floating in the aether waiting for an egg to be fertilized and "you" can enter it. "You" are the direct result of the fertilization and your parents subsequent parenting. As such, "you" could have never been anything but who you are. At least when we're talking about birth and the like. It's some abstract thinking, and if doesn't feel correct, but to assume you could have been born elsewhere is some post hoc rationalization of your life.
But if we're going to put birth down to luck, then I was quite lucky sure.
Syterion
Voodoo Economist
Thanks for the help. It's not easy to explain what I mean.
I have an inappropriate man crush on you. That's my way of saying, point taken.
Leonel
Breakfast Connoisseur
A lot of it has come from luck. I was lucky to be born into a caring family who supported me in my career, fortunate that I haven't had a major accident, fortunate for my health, very lucky to have been hired by my boss who so happened to have gone to the same university as I have.
Syterion
Voodoo Economist
I never said that it was deserved. I said that. It's just not luck. Words have meanings. The term that is appropriate is unfair. It is unfair that the position you are in is a result of your parents and their decisions, especially when it can lead to such varied circumstances. But it's not chance, and it's not luck. Just the way the world is. Luck is random. It is random that I got a certain math teacher in high school that let me take higher level classes outside of school, that allowed me to eventually be 2 years ahead in math at college. It wasn't luck that my mom chose for me to be born near that high school.
aelf
Ashen One
I've already dealt with this. There is no need to get into the metaphysical. The idea that you could have been someone else somewhere else is purely hypothetical, serving only to illustrate the fact that you don't choose to be born to a particular set of circumstances.
If you don't deserve an outcome because of the decisions you made and the effort you put into getting it, why shouldn't it be attributed to luck? I don't see any substantive difference between what you call unfairness and luck. What is luck anyway? I don't think luck exists as a kind metaphysical category. Luck is just what we attribute the outcomes that are beyond our control to. It's not really a thing. It represents the lack of subjective explanations.
Syterion
Voodoo Economist
But luck and non-randomness are. That's my whole point.
To aelf, it's just a semantic difference. I don't see the point in needlessly using incorrect words though. These events aren't from chance, therefore they can't be lucky. How is this hard?
Merriam-Webster feels that it's better defined as "a favoring chance." Chance, as in randomness. Things can be out of your control, and non-deserved, but not by chance. If you get a promotion because your boss just likes you more, it's not deserved, and you had no control over the decision, but it wasn't random. There was a reason.
aelf
Ashen One
Almost everything happens for one reason or another. If you won the lottery after years of regularly buying tickets, did you win purely by chance or did you 'create your own luck' by persisting? Where do you want to draw the line between luck and "unfairness"?
Besides, "unfairness" has negative connotations. What if, as is characteristic of capitalistic thinking, some people don't think that it's unfair that you were born to a particular set of circumstances or if you got promoted because the boss thinks you're more good-looking?
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