If you are debating intervention in Syria ...

[NovaKart]

Neither do I, I don't think it's really worth my time to engage with you so farewell.

 

[DemonicAppleGuY]

Single largest budget item for US = Military spending. We already agree the US sells more arms abroad than anyone else.

The single largest budget item for the US is actually Social Security. If you count Medicare and Medicaid as one thing they are larger as well.

I know that as an old guy you're averse to Wikipedia, but I assure you it is accurate.
If you want to go digging through the government budget though, be my guest.

Wars destroy lives and equipment. Equipment means military contracts. You do know that the US military BUYS its ordnance, right? Do you know that most of the military contracts are multinational corporations, right? You do know that these are NOT the largest source of employment, right? (Small businesses are.)

Wars destroy infrastructure and industry too. Although obviously less so over time with the advent of precision munitions. You get the idea though.

I'm well are arms manufacturers are not the largest employers, which is exactly the reason they don't have as much sway as many try to say. They have less to work with.

So, who gains from a US policy geared for war and war production?

Obviously the arms manufacturers. Equating correlation and causation is a bad life choice though man.

And, btw, Obama himself said he is going to respond militarily, regardless of the overwhelming US popular opposition to it.

What a man says and what a man does are quite different things. Isn't that why he's throwing it to Congress in the first place?

So, he don't give a damn about whether Americans can stomach anything. He knows which side his bread is buttered.

If he really didn't give a damn would he not have already gotten involved? Long before this red line was crossed?

Who really

That dangle.

-snip-

What's been occurring in the Middle East are proxy wars with the objective of either securing lucrative contracts on natural resources, extending American influence, or weakening rival powers. In the case of Syria, it is not a resource-rich country, but it has a significant strategic value to Russia and Iran.

Your mental vomit offends me, but I suppose I can address this last bit.
You're correct in saying that Assad's Syria is of value to Iran and Russia. My point is that toppling the Assad regime and instituting a Western-oriented regime are not worth the cost and that is why we have seen hesitation from Obama.

This man would like a word with you and your insult of choice:

But where's the beef Cheezy? Where's the beef?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

But where's the beef Cheezy? Where's the beef?

You'll just have to have the patience to watch a 15 minute speech by a president who, while not being on my list of heroes, wasn't a total sellout moron.

See, the thing about people back then: they didn't have to have things explicitly spelled out for them in order to get it; and likewise, when speaking they didn't do it. So I don't have a 5 second MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX IS BAD soundbyte to tell you what I expect you to think. Hell, he doesn't even use the words communism, Soviet Union, or Truman, or in the entire speech, and yet everyone knows exactly what he's talking about.

Oh, how far our society has fallen, when a communist looks to Eisenhower as an admirable leader of his own country.

 

[DemonicAppleGuY]

You'll just have to have the patience to watch a 15 minute speech by a president who, while not being on my list of heroes, wasn't a total sellout moron.

I've seen the speech in the past. I've read and heard about what Eisenhower said. You think I haven't studied American history or something?

Back to what I was saying though: I'm having a hard time locating the beef Cheezy. Can you please present it to me?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I've seen the speech in the past. I've read and heard about what Eisenhower said. You think I haven't studied American history or something?

Back to what I was saying though: I'm having a hard time locating the beef Cheezy. Can you please present it to me?

Very well, I will state it explicitly for your small and dense mind. Eisenhower coined the term "military-industrial complex" and described its nature and dangers it posed. Eisenhower was not a hippie. Therefore, the MIC is not:

some hippie thing like that

Further, your flippant regard for the concept displays a certain ignorance that critical thinking could remedy. It's not my job to think for you, but it is my job to point out where much smarter people than you think you're wrong. Once again, Eisenhower in this speech demonstrates the dangers of this concept, as well as its already extant nature. Eisenhower is much smarter than you. Good luck proving the President of the United States and a 5-star general wrong about the arms industry that he actively helped to create, and which everyone except for you already knows exists.

- Arms industry that survives on government contracts uses large part of budget and has many bases and firms located in districts all over the country
- No need for an arms industry if there are no wars
- bases and firms shut down if industry is not needed
- if firms shut down then jobs in the district are lost
- if jobs are lost by a politician's action, then they lose their re-election
- politicians don't like to lose re-election
- politicians seek out wars to create demand for arms industry, save jobs in their district, including their own
-repeat

Make sense?

And you couldn't hurt yourself by looking at the Iron Triangle either:

 

[DemonicAppleGuY]

Very well, I will state it explicitly for your small and dense mind. Eisenhower coined the term "military-industrial complex" and described its nature and dangers it posed. Eisenhower was not a hippie. Therefore, the MIC is not:

Just because you are not a hippie does not necessarily mean actions you take can be hippie.

I was using "hippie" as an adjective. My sentence would be quite confusing if I were using it as a noun.

Further, your flippant regard for the concept displays a certain ignorance that critical thinking could remedy. It's not my job to think for you, but it is my job to point out where much smarter people than you think you're wrong. Once again, Eisenhower in this speech demonstrates the dangers of this concept, as well as its already extant nature. Eisenhower is much smarter than you. Good luck proving the President of the United States and a 5-star general wrong about the arms industry that he actively helped to create, and which everyone except for you already knows exists.

I never stated the industry did not exist. I stated that I firmly believed that MIC has far less political influence than some think.

But for the sake of fun, let's turn it around against you.

Eisenhower was not a communist and did not believe in communism. Therefore communism is wrong. Who are you to question Eisenhower?

You are not presenting an argument. You are presenting words a man said half a century ago that do not present much of an argument themselves.

EDIT: You edited to make an argument. Will edit later.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Just because you are not a hippie does not necessarily mean actions you take can be hippie.

I was using "hippie" as an adjective. My sentence would be quite confusing if I were using it as a noun.

You're just making things up to be contrarian then. Fine, be an idiot, say Ike was acting like a hippie. You still haven't stated why thinking that special interests in the Defense Department and its contractors is a "hippie" idea, whatever the hell that's supposed to mean...

I never stated the industry did not exist. I stated that I firmly believed that MIC has far less political influence than some think.

Eisenhower was not a communist and did not believe in communism. Therefore communism is wrong. Who are you to question Eisenhower?

Eisenhower was not an expert on communism. But he was an expert on the MIC, both as the general whose wartime demands created it, and as the president who oversaw their to-that-point most dramatic expansion.

You are not presenting an argument. You are presenting words a man said half a century ago that do not present much of an argument themselves.

You have no argument, either, you're just calling people names and going "well, nu-uh!" to everything people say. At least I've presented evidence, although I'm not sure why I would bother any more, since you'll surely dismiss that as "some hippie crap" as well. I wish I were younger so I could know everything too.

 

[DemonicAppleGuY]

You're just making things up to be contrarian then. Fine, be an idiot, say Ike was acting like a hippie. You still haven't stated why thinking that special interests in the Defense Department and its contractors is a "hippie" idea, whatever the hell that's supposed to mean...

I'm stating that it's hippie to believe that wars are instigated often only because of the MIC.

Eisenhower was not an expert on communism. But he was an expert on the MIC, both as the general whose wartime demands created it, and as the president who oversaw their to-that-point most dramatic expansion.

He was not an expert on the political influence it has though. Eisenhower was a military man. He was not a political scientist nor an economist however. (Not to claim that I am an expert).

You have no argument, either, you're just calling people names and going "well, nu-uh!" to everything people say. At least I've presented evidence, although I'm not sure why I would bother any more, since you'll surely dismiss that as "some hippie crap" as well. I wish I were younger so I could know everything too.

This thread is about Syria. We are arguing about a tangent. The burden of proof is one you.

- Arms industry that survives on government contracts uses large part of budget and has many bases and firms located in districts all over the country
- No need for an arms industry if there are no wars
- bases and firms shut down if industry is not needed
- if firms shut down then jobs in the district are lost
- if jobs are lost by a politician's action, then they lose their re-election
- politicians don't like to lose re-election
- politicians seek out wars to create demand for arms industry, save jobs in their district, including their own
-repeat

If military industry does not receive funding then those taxpayer dollars go somwhere else (and create employment there) or more likely, they are not collected at all and stay with taxpayers. Resulting in higher consumption and investment, leading to employment.

As for your Iron Triangle: So?

Yes, the MIC has some pull. Would not larger employers and corporations have more pull though? Walmart is the single largest employer in the US. The MIC does not help them out. Lower taxes on them and their customers do though. This is just a tiny example of a corporation (and the numerous others like it) whose interests would indirectly go against those of the MIC.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

@Cheezy: just let DemonicAppleGuy go, he's like 13 or something. We don't want to be accused of cyber bullying, since HIS neighborhood is not about to be hit by a cruise missile. He looks at the world as it is fed to him in textbooks by teachers whose living depends on selling this drivel. Or what he reads from the internet.

Those of us who deal in the real world, such as one of my organizations who just sent a shipment of medical supplies to Honduras, deal with the real consequences of the influence, whether sought or unsought, of the military-industrial-congressional (which was the original phrase) complex; or another organization holding NJ's feet to the fire about turning a blind eye to $500 million in utility overcharges.

NB: just to throw a loop, Cuban researchers just licensed a second vaccine for advanced lung cancer. No other country in the world has TWO licensed vaccines
.
Socialism lookin' mighty good.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

@Cheezy: just let DemonicAppleGuy go, he's like 13 or something.

I was pretty sure I had read this before, I just second-guessed myself. Apologies for all who witnessed this.

Also, I was taught about the Iron Triangle in school, but that was back when educators taught things. Before RTTT and NCLB.

 

[DemonicAppleGuY]

I was pretty sure I had read this before, I just second-guessed myself. Apologies for all who witnessed this.

You boys know the rules of the Internet. That's an admission of defeat.

And I'm a little older than 13 boys. Doesn't matter though. You can address my argument.

 

[Rashiminos]

You can address my argument.

Okay.

I'll start off with two parts.

The single largest budget item for the US is actually Social Security. If you count Medicare and Medicaid as one thing they are larger as well.

These budgets are raided to fund other endeavors.

If he really didn't give a damn would he not have already gotten involved? Long before this red line was crossed?

Well yes he does, and yes the US has been involved for quite some time, just not so overtly.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

You boys know the rules of the Internet. That's an admission of defeat.

Actually, it means the hottie in my apartment is why I will not be getting much sleep tonight, not because I am staring at a computer screen.

Edit:

And I'm a little older than 13 boys.

Not a fact in evidence.

Doesn't matter though. You can address my argument.

No thanks.

Sent via mobile.

 

[Rashiminos]

Trying to prove something, ReindeerThistle?

 

[ReindeerThistle]

No. Just tired and having fun. Sorry if I offend

I just got through some round table discussions with other Reds on the topic of Syria, amongst other things. I put a couple of links on the other threads, which I believe you have seen.

This is serious, I understand. However, without addressing the root problem, we will not be saved from imperialist wars. Our system is fueled by war and production and preparation for it.

It's never too late. I have been on the front lines in the fight for justice for 21 years. I am taking the next two hours for myself.

Sent via mobile.

 

[Rashiminos]

No. Just tired and having fun. Sorry if I offend

I'm not offended. I'm just wondering what Demonic posted to merit such a response with all of appellations he's been tossing about as of late.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

I'm not offended. I'm just wondering what Demonic posted to merit such a response with all of appellations he's been tossing about as of late.

It's a gestalt of posts which in essence issue "nuh-uh" and "uh-huh" points of arguments with name-calling (eg called me a loser when I told him he should not cite wikipedia when he gets to college and ergo "citing wikioedia = you lose."
He trolled the Ask a Red thread and tried to out-argue a successful entrepreneur on the panel as well as me, a southern roots Red from an old money family about being rich or wanting to.

So, I have my life's work, many lives saved and more to come, my cause, "my" girl and my Benz.

He can have the argument

One last thing, from rt.com

http://rt.com/news/worldwide-protests-syria-strike-564/
Even the Syrian opposition doesn't want air strikes

Syrian opposition speaks out against military strike

Rebel groups have voiced their opposition against a possible US-led strike on Syria, arguing that it would only serve American interests.

The Syrian Islamic Front posted a message on its Facebook page cautioning its followers against supporting a strike. The group stated that military intervention would only benefit Washington - not Syrians who are seeking to topple Assad.

Sent via mobile.

 

[Rashiminos]

It's a gestalt of posts which in essence issue "nuh-uh" and "uh-huh" points of arguments with name-calling (eg called me a loser when I told him he should not cite wikipedia when he gets to college and ergo "citing wikioedia = you lose."
He trolled the Ask a Red thread and tried to out-argue a successful entrepreneur on the panel as well as me, a southern roots Red from an old money family about being rich or wanting to.

So, I have my life's work, many lives saved and more to come, my cause, "my" girl and my Benz.

He can have the argument

I guess that confirms a nerve has been struck, at least to me it does.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

I guess that confirms a nerve has been struck, at least to me it does.

Not at all. I'm just feeling a little plucky tonight.

Sent via mobile.

 

[Borachio]

- Arms industry that survives on government contracts uses large part of budget and has many bases and firms located in districts all over the country
- No need for an arms industry if there are no wars
- bases and firms shut down if industry is not needed
- if firms shut down then jobs in the district are lost
- if jobs are lost by a politician's action, then they lose their re-election
- politicians don't like to lose re-election
- politicians seek out wars to create demand for arms industry, save jobs in their district, including their own
-repeat

Make sense?

Makes perfect sense to me.

And you couldn't hurt yourself by looking at the Iron Triangle either:

I'm less sure of this, though. I'm not sure Bureaucracy works like this.

edit: Oh I see, they mean the Executive. Hmm.