Immigration in the US

[MrPresident]

The average American is more likely to hold a University degree than any other nation (24%, the Netherlands are closest with 21% followed by Canada with 17%).

The question then would be if that degree is worth the paper is written on. Speaking from an English point of view with a basic knowledge of the American education system I will come on to make the usual general very-offensive (to Americans) comments that are probably not based on fact, here goes. The American system is designed to promote a wide base for education. That is why they have a high school diplomat instead of specific qualifications in subjects (e.g. the British GCSEs). At university students do a major and minor courses instead of the very specialised British approach of centrating in one subject. So at the end of it the American student may have a wider base education level but the Brition will have been educated to a higher level in a specific subject. Feel free to cricitise this, me, my religion and especially my country but please for heaven's sake do not cricitise my sense of humour.

 

[knowltok2]

The question comes down to which philosophy is better. IMO, it can't be argued because there is no way to prove it. Notice though that I did not say system. The American public education system (up through high school) sucks. The convoy system best describes it: Fastest pace of the slowest individual. IMO the problems are societal, and are not related to the philosophy of broad v. narrow.

College education in the US can run the gammut from superb to lackluster. As someone who chose to specialize in business, I have a healthy distrust for those that got degrees in liberal arts fields. It amazes me that someone can consider themselves to have a well-rounded education and never have taken a class on Economics. This is personal bias of course, they might feel the same about me for my lack of an Art History class.

Okay, I'm ranting, so I'll stop. If anyone wants to discuss the American Education system in a rational manner with an American who isn't going to be incensed when you say it sucks, start a thread.

 

[MrPresident]

It amazes me that someone can consider themselves to have a well-rounded education and never have taken a class on Economics. This is personal bias of course, they might feel the same about me for my lack of an Art History class.

It too amazes me that someone can talk for ages about a painting from the impressionist era of French history but fail to understand the basic workings of say interest rates.

To seemlessly (or so it seems to me) change the subject. Is it true that anyone playing American Football in the NFL has to have a college degree? I admire the thought behind this but doesn't it tend to lead to people who by all intents and purposes shouldn't never get near a university getting the same qualification as another university (or college) leaver? Wells that my two pennies (change to equalivent domestic currency).

 

[knowltok2]

Originally posted by MrPresident

It too amazes me that someone can talk for ages about a painting from the impressionist era of French history but fail to understand the basic workings of say interest rates.

To seemlessly (or so it seems to me) change the subject. Is it true that anyone playing American Football in the NFL has to have a college degree? I admire the thought behind this but doesn't it tend to lead to people who by all intents and purposes shouldn't never get near a university getting the same qualification as another university (or college) leaver? Wells that my two pennies (change to equalivent domestic currency).

Seemlessly....I guess I'm gonna have to look that word up now. I thought I knew what it meant.

No, that is not true. We have many people leaving college early to play in the NFL. It may have been a rule at one time, but is really just a custom now. Actually one that is increasingly being disregarded. College just represents a place where high schoolers can make the transition. This too could be another thread. You're on a roll today.

 

[Greadius]

Originally posted by MrPresident
At university students do a major and minor courses instead of the very specialised British approach of centrating in one subject. So at the end of it the American student may have a wider base education level but the Brition will have been educated to a higher level in a specific subject.

I don't know if that is necessarily true. My piece of paper will say Political Science on it, but that means I could be specialized in international policy, or in comparitive government, or just the U.S. government. I think what you may mean is we really don't have that many names for our degrees. I don't know anyone who is majoring in Political Science who has the identical class structure I do.

Originally posted by knowltok2
As someone who chose to specialize in business, I have a healthy distrust for those that got degrees in liberal arts fields. It amazes me that someone can consider themselves to have a well-rounded education and never have taken a class on Economics. This is personal bias of course, they might feel the same about me for my lack of an Art History class.

I'm a liberal arts major, and I had to take a year of Economics to satisfy the requirement.
Two of my best classes too. I missed 1 point (Out of 800) in my Microeconomics class.

I suppose the requirement varies from state to state, but in Florida liberal arts majors are required to take economics.

 

[MrPresident]

I don't know if that is necessarily true. My piece of paper will say Political Science on it, but that means I could be specialized in international policy, or in comparitive government, or just the U.S. government. I think what you may mean is we really don't have that many names for our degrees. I don't know anyone who is majoring in Political Science who has the identical class structure I do.

No what I mean is that when applying to an British university you have to say what course you are going to study before hand. When you study that course you have core modules that everyone covers and then some extra ones that the individual student chooses. So at the end of the degree every student has an understanding of the basics in that course. Also it rare for a student to be studying more than one course which is not the case in America as far as I can tell. Plus the courses are usually just 3 years long.

 

[VoodooAce]

Immigration in the US. Hhhhmmmm.

This issue has existed as long as the USA.....longer.

Every so many decades we have an infulx of immigrants.

Each time, a large portion of the current population gets all bent out of shape over the newcomers. They about America changing:
1) We're losing our identity.
2) The immigrants just want to change us into their homeland.
3) Our infrastructure isn't able to handle the influx.

So much ignorant B.S. Each group of immigrants that comes in are led by adults. People that have grown up in a different culture. These people don't often change.

But their children, and their children's children, they become the Americans.

And, lol, they join the chorus when the next wave of immigration begins, and .

Nothing's changed. Look at Latinos that come from families that immigrated 20 years ago. They're American. Much more American that Mexican. Look at Oscar De La Hoya. Look all over.

How many of those complaining about immigration have Irish or Italian surnames. Any American that complains about immigration IS a hypocrite whether they like it or not.

People, especially Americans, ignore history far too much.

 

[MrPresident]

In the 1920s an American journlist said the following:

"America has always had a problem with illegal immigration......just ask the natives" (or indians)

 

[Morgasshk]

Immigration is great, as long as they are screened...

My though has always been that it is too easy to get into and become part of the "lucky country" where the "streets are paved with gold" I agree, America is an opportunity for everyone willing to take advantage of that... But there is still the question of how such a well known terrorist network such as Al Quieda able to set up so many people in close relation and proximity to big cities where they had access to flight education, airports etc... There was heaps of people involved in the Sept 11 attacks and there were able to set up so easy because they are allowed in!

No, I am NOt saying you deserved it and do not deride any like arguments from this!!!... Just saying that it was made heaps easier by the flag that America has upon it - being easy with entry... With such a huge diversity in culture, groups of 5 and 6 arab looking blokes boarding 4/5 planes simultaneously wasn't enough to warrant investigation... Whereas after this it would be checked out thoroughly... (i think I spelt that wrong..)

Japan having no problem with population??? Are you kidding me?

Why do you think they have one of the highest pollution levels in the world and their main cities have the highest rate for living... To live in their cities and have a place the size of an average house would cost thousands more than anywhere else!

 

[allhailIndia]

Why should the orchard be cut down by the presence of one worm in an apple??

The benefits of of immigration far outweigh the pranoia of militants slamming planes into the WTC.Besides, this was more an intelligence failure on the part of the CIA, for having sat on their asses for too long about the problem of fundamentalists.

I was completely appalled by the treatment of non white people, genrally and Muslims, specifically, by both the Government and the ordinary American. If that were the case, every German/Swede/other European making for the beaches of Goa or Cambodia should be constantly harassed as a Paedophile. Racial profiling is dangerous and often self destructive tool used by nations.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Originally posted by allhailIndia
If that were the case, every German/Swede/other European making for the beaches of Goa or Cambodia should be constantly harassed as a Paedophile.

Guards! Rearrange my overseas trip to Outer Mongolia!
grumble grumble grumble...Man can't even go to the beach these days...

 

[knowltok2]

I was completely appalled by the treatment of non white people, genrally and Muslims, specifically, by both the Government and the ordinary American. If that were the case, every German/Swede/other European making for the beaches of Goa or Cambodia should be constantly harassed as a Paedophile. Racial profiling is dangerous and often self destructive tool used by nations.

Any unfair treatment is appalling, but I think we need to keep proper perspective. Unlike much of the world the US isn't perfect. There are going to be hotheaded idiots here that do stupid and hateful things. America just hasn't got a lock on the rationality that prevades much of the world. Compare their barbarity to the nations in the former Yugoslavia, the tribal conflicts in Africa, the squable of the Israelis and Palestinians. For goodness sake, just look at the relations the US has with its neighbors! They could certainly take lessons from the stability Pakistan and India show the world, or even the cordial relations of Iraq and Iran.

America hasn't been 100% perfect following 9/11. Don't take that to mean that we have turned into an oppressive police state where dissenters are rounded up, sent to camps, and never herd from again.

 

[Fart]

http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/pr-imopi.html

 

[Zouave]

We've had too much LEGAL immigration for far too long. But America has been flooded for decades with ILLEGAL immigrants, and even though millions were made legal by Act of Congress in the 1980's there are at least nine million more.

Unlike my immigrant great-grandparents, illegals undergo no health check, and violate the law when coming in. My ancestors also had a sponsor and job waiting for them here; they sought to assimilate and become Americans - and they didn't go on SSI or get food stamps.

I do not see this new wave of immigrants seeking to assimilate, and too many are getting public assistance, and not enough want to assimilate and learn English. They in fact demand government documents be printed in their languages.

It is time for a break. Stop the immigration for several years and let them BECOME AMERICANS. Then, resume LEGAL immigration.

For the record, 16 of the 19 terrorists of September 11th were illegal immigrants, the others coming in on the all-too easy to get "student visas".

The World Trade Center was destroyed - and American took a 900 Billion dollar hit - due to these Open Door Immigration fanatics.

Oh yes, 85% of the legal immigrants come from the poor Third World which has no tradition or history of democracy or tolerance.

Meanwhile, it is costing Americans jobs, such as in computers where cheaper workers are imported in from such as India.

America is become a Tower of Babel, and is becoming Balkanized.

Enough for awhile.

Read more about it here: http://www.projectusa.org/

 

[CurtSibling]

Immigration is a good thing.

If you go to London you will see a bustling metropolis with
every type of culture possible.

The USA's biggest cities are the same.
Most Immigrants have something to offer,
as many here have pointed out.

PS
It is good to see that the majority of North Americans still have
the goodwill and fine spirit of welcoming new people and
accepting citizens from around the globe.

That is the attitude that made the USA a sucess...

 

[VoodooAce]

Originally posted by Zouave

I do not see this new wave of immigrants seeking to assimilate, and too many are getting public assistance, and not enough want to assimilate and learn English. They in fact demand government documents be printed in their languages.

Nothing new here at all. This could have been written by anti-immigrants 100 years ago. Think about Italian ghettos back then. So many poor people, very many of the adults only speaking Italian and NEVER learning much English. The evidence is right there for us. Look at 2nd and 3rd generation Mexican immigrants. They are very much assimilated. They are proud to be Mexican, as Italians were proud. Shoot, Italians are STILL proud to be Italian. What's wrong with that?

I can tell you, as I live in SoCal and had anti-immigrant leanings for much of my life, until I put it into an historical perspective and realized the truth in what I wrote above.

In 30 or so years it will be another nationality (Canadians? ) that we're stressing over, and there will be a bunch of conservative Mexicans joining the chorus to halt this immigration problem.

Originally posted by Zouave
Oh yes, 85% of the legal immigrants come from the poor Third World which has no tradition or history of democracy or tolerance.

Meanwhile, it is costing Americans jobs, such as in computers where cheaper workers are imported in from such as India.

America is become a Tower of Babel, and is becoming Balkanized.

Enough for awhile.

Read more about it here: http://www.projectusa.org/

Nothing new there, either. So many of the immigrants the US has recieved throughout her history came here because of our democracy, and the lack of it in their homeland

Anti-immigrants have no arguments now that weren't in use for the last century and a half, and they will be proven wrong yet again, imho.

BTW, Zouave, my favorite part about the website who's link you posted, is where they tell us that one reason Utah doesn't have some of the problems more'diverse' regions have is because "It's the whitest state that doesn't border Canada. And it's the most religiously homogenous."

Makes me feel warm and fuzzy all over.

 

[knowltok2]

I don't know if it is necessary, but I want to further clarify my stand on this issue.

1. I have no problem with legal immigration.
2. I do have a problem with illegal immigration.
3. We either need to enforce our laws, or pass ones that we will enforce. If our current legal immigration is too restrictive, lets expand it, but there is a benefit from having immigrants go through the system, and all of them should.
4. Immigration paperwork should be in whatever language the person requests.
5. Citizenship papers and ballots should be in english. Until and unless the US adopts a second official language, this should be the case. I believe this is important more for the immigrants than for the 'rest of us'. Having a basic understanding of the native toungue is a good thing and should be encouraged. I think there is more likelyhood of abuse of people who do not speak the language, than there is of requiring them to learn it at a basic level for citizenship.


On a side note: Homogemous is nice, and it is generally more peaceful, but it is not in the cards for the US, so we had all better get over the notion. Assimilation of the type that happened with the immigrants of 100-200 years ago isn't going to happen. The world has changed and we are going to need to learn to get along with other people instead of wishing that each group had their own little corner of the world where they could be alone. The US is one of the leading nations in this, and it is another of the historical challenges that has been given to us. We need to rise up and accept the challenge instead of wishing we were Utah, or Sweeden, or Japan.

 

[MrPresident]

Until and unless the US adopts a second official language

America doesn't have an offical language. Although most if not all offical document etc are in english it is not the offical language of America.

Homogemous is nice

No it isn't, diversity has made civilisation what it is today, it is the essence of a democractic society. What is nice is co-operation, different people living together and getting along.

We need to rise up and accept the challenge instead of wishing we were Utah

Not that I have anything against Utah but I think that it lacks diversity not because of some master-plan but because not many people want to live there. Why do you think that the Mormons moved there to be alone?

 

[knowltok2]

Originally posted by MrPresident

America doesn't have an offical language. Although most if not all offical document etc are in english it is not the offical language of America.

No it isn't, diversity has made civilisation what it is today, it is the essence of a democractic society. What is nice is co-operation, different people living together and getting along.

Not that I have anything against Utah but I think that it lacks diversity not because of some master-plan but because not many people want to live there. Why do you think that the Mormons moved there to be alone?

1. As was pointed out in another thread, America apparently doesn't have an 'Official' name either. This is a matter of semantics.

2. You missed my point about homogenous being nice. I should have said that people may think it is nice, and then have considered on with my statement. Point taken.

3. I only used Utah because it was used in a previous post, and I didn't claim that its lack of diversity was the result of any master plan. Apparently it is used as an example by some people of why there should be a master plan, but those people are wrong. (Then again it could just be a different way of tackling a problem )

 

[Heffalump]

Immigrants shape the future of a country. A nation makes a conscious choice as to its values when it admits new citizens.

With regard to the US, immigrants committed to the ideal of an open, democratic society .... and tolerant of all races, cultures and religions, make good citizens.

Other immigrants are less beneficial, maybe harmful. Let's take as an example a typical Saudi Arabian: despises American 'decadence', hates of Jews, cares little more for Christians, and who would find an ideal society under the rules of the Koran. Poor fits. In fact when anti-semites are native-born we call them by their face value: bigots.

"Profiling", despite the un-PC baggage the word carries, is not always bad thing. Rejecting immigrants because of the values of their culture means we simply say "your values don't match ours and you won't fit in here".

Remember it's not just immigrants who have rights. There are the rights of citizens to chose who lives in their midst.