Immortal OCC (De G.)

[obsolete]

Thought I'd have some fun over the holidays by doing some OCC again immortal style while I relearn everything I have forgot. I had a hell of a game, not to spoil it, but if anyone wants some fun, here's the 4000 bc save. There are multiple ways to play it...

 

[Seraiel]

Welcome back obsolete .

 

[RedKirrHelper]

I am consider myself as Emperor-Immortal player for usual games. And also I like very much OCC games in Civ 1,2,4.
So, I tried this save)

Spoiler :

I settled to 1 SW and then built a lot of wonders and settling most great people. Also used some of them for golden ages. Also I tried to keep AIs at wars with each other.

The game was more or less comfortable for development and for wonderbuilding.

At 1250 AD I am not sure what to do, but I hope that the game is winnable.

Some saves are below. For any advice, tips or comments, I would be very grateful.

 

[obsolete]

Well, someone who isn't a standard rule-set deity player is going to find OCC on Immortal VERY difficult. But congrats on giving it a shot. It will push you to master things...

On the other hand, if you can win OCC immortal, you can win just about every deity game. Ahah!

That said, be aware I did not cheat by turning on lucky hut slot-machines or events. It's straight up... and all the AI's can win by culture, etc. if they wish too. If you are a strong player it will be YOUR decisions in game to prevent losing to those who are going for those victories.

I think I rolled lucky on this map, because it was the FIRST game I randomly started (only chose my leader) since I've been away for years. I did quite a few other OCCs over the holidays so far, and it seems for the most part every time I roll they get worse and worse, lol. But that's ok, one of my favourite wins was a map where I got no damn resources at all! Unless you count useless calendar junk.

So, I'll look at some of your saves and maybe learn something...

Spoiler :

2200 BC
OMG. You already are giving me a heart-attack here.... Congrats on moving your settler, but you moved it to a BAD SPOT! If you are going to move, why not take advantage of the production bonus on the hill for your early worker.. etc... And more important, why not take advantage of the major defense bonus for being on hills... ESPECIALLY with Charismatic leaders?

And why are you NOT off stealing a worker? You wasted production, and now effectively have THREE USELESS WARRIORS.... You could have used the free one to go steal a worker... I mean.. you don't even have your marble hooked up yet... should have had two workers ages ago by now (yeah, stealing sometimes isn't do-able, but you didn't even attempt it). And why... if you built the Wall, did you build those warriors?

* Sigh... Hunting? That fant early is really that important to you? You wasted research on Hunting!? Since you are close to archery then, why did you bother with the warriors again? Ahah! And please don't tell me you are going for Pottery now!

I would not have gone for Bronzeworking either.. why? So you converted a hill from 3 hammers to 4... whoopie.. You removed health AND a free specialist after biology for that... Well... as long as you you put it to good use I guess... maybe it can be worth the trade...I wouldn't even attempted it. You do realize you can put lumbermills on forested hills right? Then later convert to a preserve?

You know.. you COULD have easily just used the marble to build oracle and you'd have bronzeworking free of charge... if you REALLY wanted it...

Too many other points I don't like to mention...with 45 turns already put into it so far it's looking like fail, but maybe I am missing something... let's see how you do in the other saves...

P.S. It also PAINS me to see an industrious leader, with a capital that is STILL in Fledgling culture status after all this time has gone by

175 BC
Ok, we've now gone into super-fail mode. I see.... drum-roll... a few cottages... I was worried of that, explains why you wasted so much time and research on that stupid pottery. So now you have a food neutral squares... for a laughable 1c difference... and NO chance to regrow forests... Of all the improvements you could have chosen here.. this was the worst. Honestly, it's better often to leave even an open field-plans tile just as it is.

Those warriors you decided to put to use... but honestly, a cheap 15 hammer scout can do double the distance time than a warrior...

The Parthenon build is very questionable... it will go obsolete (npi) in a while... yet you get stuck with artist pollution.

Luck favoured you a bit to get that scientist for an academy here. But you are going to keep needing luck like that from this point maybe...

500 AD
So, you added even more artist pollution.. I guess you wanted to go for music to grab a free artist then use a golden-age... the problem, is now you are guaranteeing future artists that you don't want... So what will you do with the others? And that golden age really does not help that much with only one city...

Right now you are already at 20% to pop an artist... how long do you think you can keep dodging that bullet? Your luck is going to run out... Time to go back and re-examine Murphy's Law here.

* STOP THE PRESS *
I just realized now after double-checking... nope, you didn't research Music... It was open to you, but you didn't take advantage of it, instead you went for silly drama. So you didn't even get the artist. You could have also tech-whored Music around for anything you wanted. BIG DOUBLE-FAIL points right there.
**

P.S. With the Celts so close, and with me being a charismatic leader, I would have been raping his civ so bad right now and used the first GG for a super-hero, and settled the rest in my capital. Instead, you built the GW, and are NOT even taking full advantage of it, NOR of your charisma benefits. Another double-fail... I just can't bare to see only half a trait used... but I guess you have your reasons? Don't feel comfortable warring?

Also, trying hard not to criticize you too much, but you're doing something very wrong with your trading (one way or the other). You should be having a clear lead over everyone... I don't see much of a lead here... what am I missing? Is it intentional?


680 AD
So looks like you got smarter, and decided to put a farm down over where you had a cottage before. Well, it's an improvement... By the way, did you know that if you put a cottage down on plains tiles... you prevent the chances of a forest growing there... FOR EVER? Even if the cottage is destroyed.

So even if you like chopping them so much, it's always nice to let another have a CHANCE to grow so you can chop again... just saying...

Looks like you probably popped an artist. I am guessing because of the Golden Age. Well, you are going to keep popping them out at 1 out of every 4. That's really sucky. Seems you really trashed the GPP there. Though, it could have been worse if you had built the Zeus with your fants. Ahah!

P.S. I also didn't want to add earlier to the criticism, but I can't keep avoiding the fact any more that you are SO under-armed in your capital. At this late stage in the game, your army defending your capital consists of only an axeman (laugh), and a stone-age warrior (gasp!). I haven't bothered checking the full diplo details, but I will HOPE you have things figured out, and are not just continuing here on blind luck...

So, now I've said my two cents, don't get mad at me if things come across as a bit to-the-point... seems this community has always been that way. I'm so rusty I COULD be wrong about my points...

 

[Tatran]

By the way, did you know that if you put a cottage down on plains tiles... you prevent the chances of a forest growing there... FOR EVER? Even if the cottage is destroyed.

Are you sure? I can't remember having forest growth problems when an improvement is destroyed. And I'm a treehugger.

 

[obsolete]

There has not been a patch in what.. years? From what I remember from the snippets... putting a road on a tile causes 50% reduction in chance for forest to pop. If you try to put any other improvement (even if it is not completed.. just 1-turn worked into it), forests are prohibited from popping there. Maybe this info is out of date?

Now, if you are sure that you've seen demolished improvements can cause a forest to grow as of late... then we are stuck with the only other interpretation that once you put a turn of work into an improvement, you had better finish that improvement and destroy it if you change your mind.

BTW, how many times have you seen ruins turn into forests?

 

[Tatran]

I can't remember seeing forests growing over unfinished improvements or city ruins.

Btw, the apple tree event (+1 food) can put a forest on an ivory tile. Forests never grow on a tile with ivory. Jungle does grow on grassland ivory.

 

[DanielTorrence]

How important is fresh water in OCC? The two plains hills are

Spoiler :

either without fresh water (the southern one) or you gain at least a cow tile, but get some useless coastal tiles without access to the coast and loose the stone for the mids (the one in the north). I would normally settle in place here, but I understand that is something obsolete does not advice.

 

[obsolete]

I will try to keep an eye on to see if a forest can grow over a destroyed improvement. But to be honest, that will be difficult. A rare event, multiplied by the fact I RARELY have an item destroyed where a tree would normally grow.

And even if it were possible, knowing Cid they probably have at least the same -50% penalty as they do for putting a road through the tile (which is why I don't worker spam roads at random). Realistically, the penalty should be much worse than -50% chances. So GFL.

Hopefully someone can clear this matter up for sure.

I don't mind mining non-forested hills of course, since if I am SUSPICIOUS they are going to pop something... no point in stalling. Trees will not grow over hidden resources either!

 

[BornInCantaloup]

How important is fresh water in OCC? The two plains hills are

Spoiler :

either without fresh water (the southern one) or you gain at least a cow tile, but get some useless coastal tiles without access to the coast and loose the stone for the mids (the one in the north). I would normally settle in place here, but I understand that is something obsolete does not advice.

Fresh water is likely less important than food surplus (i.e. killing the clams seems dubious to me),
However Health is likely a bigger concern than Happiness in OCC :
Either Hereditary Rule or the Globe Theatre solve all happiness issues relatively early, whereas there is no absolute early answer to health.


I've played this interesting map to about 1000 AD and found myself happy buying some health resources from the neighbours.

 

[Tatran]

@Obsolete
Here's a link to a succession game I've participated in years ago. (2008, time goes scary fast.)
The theme was : forests must grow everywhere when possible.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=281125

 

[obsolete]

The only reason someone would run into health problems, is chopping away their future FREE specialists. I won't really complain if that's the way you want to play it, just make sure you put farms down. Ahah!

Those trees can give a little extra production with lumber mills (yeah, they have a use now and then). But they do double duty... they add health... and also happiness when you hit Biology. They also help you to grow MORE forests. Ahah.

Don't want to give out too many spoilers, but I love to WAR A LOT... so another reason I leave trees all around my BFC... particularly when the AIs love to suicide into my forts. Yeah, there is always some idiot who tries that... Another reason I love the double-hero strat.

It is a shame that Firaxis cheats so bad as to make the AI have almost 0 HAPPY penalty on Immortal & Diety... otherwise there would be a strategic value into building the Zeus... aside from culture.

I will have to re-run some numbers... but I am still dubious on building the Parthenon even if it is cheap to do so... Just maybe... it is worth building if there is excessive culture vic type leaders to deal with.... and not in an easy location to deal with.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Surely, it depends on what you aim for.

The National Park is a very powerful wonder but it comes with Biology...
Lumbermills come with Replaceable Parts and are improved with Railroads...
... This is all very long term.

Chopping helps secure the early wonders and get faster gpp.
I'm definitely on the chopping side of things, here, because I want to invest thousands of hammers into wonders. The Oracle, Temple of Artemis, Pyramids, Great Library, National Epic and Parthenon are all no-brainers to me, and then I want some more. I feel like I need chops to get those.
However, I can see the no-chop or limited-chops approach working out alright.

My take in this game has been to play peacefully until Rifling and try to secure a Conquest win from there.
I think chopping-it-all gets there faster, although I wouldn't assert with confidence that it's worth the weaker late game.
Somehow, it all depends until what point the late game really lasts. If it goes until Nukes or so, maybe the National Park is the real deal.


Cottaging vs farming is a different issue.
I'd rather cottage because of the incremental cost of GPs but farming has its merits, provided the Pyramids are built.
I don't believe specialists compare very well with cottages when GPs cost too much. Earlier on, they compare much better.


Parthenon,
Is dependent on your gpp rate. If it gets you 1 or 2 extra GPs, then surely it was worth it. Hard to assess in a vacuum.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Well, I replayed this map, taking into account Obsolete's points about chopping (brown tiles) and gpp pollution. Gotta trust the OCC pros
Depending on the active workforce, Replaceable Parts isn't necessarily that far down the tech path.

@ 1010 AD, looking good so far :

Spoiler :

Trained the second worker later (around Civil Service vs before The Oracle),
Streamlined the tech path a bit (postponed Hunting until after Writing),
Got the wonders a bit earlier (2000 BC Oracle vs 1720 BC),
Missed on some Artist gpp (Mausoleum of Mausoles) and popped 0 Artist (but 2 Merchants instead),
But got The Hanging Gardens instead,
Woodsman 3 warrior unlocked the Heroic Epic,
Got to Rifling earlier as well (1000 AD vs 1200 AD or so).

Screens :

Spoiler :

 

[obsolete]

I am wondering... is there a way to CHANGE your leader using just the initial auto-save? I am thinking it would be interesting to use different leaders as a test-bed to compare.

I would have really liked to see how much better things could have been with De Gaulle of the Incas... or of the Mali. It's been a long time since I played MIXED leaders, but there are some interesting combos. The only problem is often you can't change your initial starting techs the way you'd like.


As for the last game in progress post...:

Spoiler :

I was startled to see the HE mentioned. The problem is you only have what... FIVE max mini-wonder-thingamabobbers allowed in your capital. And yes, I really did forget what you call those things.... man I've been gone from this game for far too long.

I feel the HE is NOT worth it, for various reasons.... Doesn't it give artist pollution? And you waste time making it, when that time could have got you units in the first place... not to mention a strong capital can make me units often 1 per turn if I need anyhow... and furthermore... with Charismatic units you don't need as many in the first place...also with over-flow mechanics broken due to stupidity, you will get yourself short-changed and ripped off.....(or was that FINALLY FIXED!?)

Ok enough complaints... some other things I REALLY don't like in your shots... but maybe I'll be impressed when the dust settles. This is not quite my cup of tea on how I'd want to attack, but I will be interested in how it goes... even if it fails. Ahah!

 

[lymond]

Open game with initial save

Open World Builder and save as wb file.

Open wb file in Notepad.

Easiest way is have the civ/leader you want to play in another wb text file - from another game - so you can copy/paste to replace the appropriate lines.

It should be pretty clear what you need to change once you look at the file. It's not hard at all

Here's an example of what the text looks like:

BeginPlayer
Team=0
LeaderType=LEADER_ZARA_YAQOB
LeaderName=lymond
CivDesc=TXT_KEY_CIV_ETHIOPIA_DESC
CivShortDesc=TXT_KEY_CIV_ETHIOPIA_SHORT_DESC
CivAdjective=TXT_KEY_CIV_ETHIOPIA_ADJECTIVE
FlagDecal=Art/Interface/TeamColor/FlagDECAL_Athiopien.dds
WhiteFlag=1
CivType=CIVILIZATION_ETHIOPIA
Color=PLAYERCOLOR_MIDDLE_GREEN
ArtStyle=ARTSTYLE_AFRICA
PlayableCiv=1
MinorNationStatus=0
StartingGold=2435
StartingX=7, StartingY=17
StateReligion=
StartingEra=ERA_INDUSTRIAL
RandomStartLocation=false
CivicOption=CIVICOPTION_GOVERNMENT, Civic=CIVIC_REPRESENTATION
CivicOption=CIVICOPTION_LEGAL, Civic=CIVIC_BUREAUCRACY
CivicOption=CIVICOPTION_LABOR, Civic=CIVIC_CASTE_SYSTEM
CivicOption=CIVICOPTION_ECONOMY, Civic=CIVIC_STATE_PROPERTY
CivicOption=CIVICOPTION_RELIGION, Civic=CIVIC_FREE_RELIGION
Handicap=HANDICAP_EMPEROR
EndPlayer

so you just need to find that section - which is not to far from the top of the file, and copy over the same lines pertaining to the civ/leader you want, which you can get from another file from another game...just copy the entire section over to replace it

You then play that file as a scenario now. However, you may want to go into WB to check that barbs have the appropriate Deity level techs as that may get changed for some reason (same issue Noble Clubs and other of the like had to deal with)

 

[obsolete]

Oh wow, Lymond is still around...

I gave the editing a shot, but even if I hit the CTRL-S hotkey in WB mode, it only shows the standard FILETYPE. If I click on the file-type drop-down list, it wont let me and stays greyed out.

 

[lymond]

hey obs - good to see you around

Not sure I followed exactly what you did, but I've never used ctrl-s. Using the "save" button in the top right should create a wb file for you in the "worldbuilder" folder. Then go to that folder in explorer (or whatever mac's have) to find the file and open it in notepad to make the edits.

(oh just tested cntl-s in WB and it seems to create a standard file. Appears you gotta use the buttons in WB)

 

[DanielTorrence]

@BiC

That is an impressive progress you posted -

Spoiler :

I was far from that, despite building oracle, Mids, HG, chicken iza, TGL, Parthenon, NE (in that order).

I tried preserving all the forests and did not build a single cottage, just one farm to irrigate the rice and one other, but I never got more than 500 bpt, even after building national park. I settled every specialist until around 600 AD - and i got a lot of them. How would one keep up with the AI in tech in the later game?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

As for the last game in progress post...:
I was startled to see the HE mentioned. The problem is you only have what... FIVE max thingamabobbers allowed in your capital. And yes, I really did forget what you call those things....

National Wonders, they are. What would your favourite set be ?
As for me, I haven't played OCC much but I can see a set of :
National Epic, Globe Theatre, Oxford University and National Park being standard.
Those are 4 National Wonders. Why not use the Heroic Epic on top, if going for a military win ?
If going for Space, surely the Iron Works are a better choice.

The Heroic Epic guarantees the capital will produce 1 unit per turn, which is crucial.
Also, if there are too many hammers in the capital, it isn't like they're lost : one can hire Scientists instead of Priests or instead of working hammer tiles and get a better tech rate.
Essentially, the HE allows to produce military on the cheap, which lets the capital fare better on other fronts (science).



Me ? In this game ? I'm even thinking of going HE, NE, Oxford, Globe (done) and 1-turn-chop the West Point (to do).

Spoiler :

Ok enough complaints... some other things I REALLY don't like in your shots... but maybe I'll be impressed when the dust settles. This is not quite my cup of tea on how I'd want to attack, but I will be interested in how it goes... even if it fails. Ahah!

Fair enough,

Spoiler :

One can probably get a better finish date by attacking earlier than 1000 AD.
The reasoning behing Riflemen is that they're die hard units. They just don't die much to Longbows and one can promote them highly.
I've been fantasizing over hordes of March Rifles/Infantries over a few past games and I feel this scenario offers a fine opportunity for that.

Attacking earlier, however, has its downsides when one cannot capture cities :
You need to control the whole continent and not just a single opponent.
I'm pretty sure earlier warring comes with a sacrifice in research speed. Admittedly, the tech speed doesn't matter as much as the tech differential between the player and the AIs.
In this light, Rifles are a safe and easy path to victory, compared with War Elephants/Macemen.

If warring early, I'd be more attracted to a defensive war, to start promoting units, than to an offensive one.
Controling 6 AIs seems a lot tougher when going on the offensive early.

How would one keep up with the AI in tech in the later game?

Spoiler :

Focus the capital on growth from as early as possible & spam science multipliers is the easy, short answer.
It could be noted that Cottages offer a worst growth rate than Farms but a better one than Farms + Specialists.
I've only hired specialists with my surplus pop, when working poor tiles wasn't appealing. However, I have been working poor tiles instead of specs to speed up some population growths.
As a general rule, grow first, then hire specs / work food negative tiles. Specialists are at their best when there's nothing of importance to grow onto.

I think you've been right in avoiding bulbing and favouring settling GPs.
The few turns gained on a tech don't necessarily matter much when one is limited to a single city. (40 cities starting to build a military unit are a different thing...)
Getting a sustainable rate seems important to me.

The other aspects, I think, to stay ahead in tech, involve the diplomacy and trade policy.
You need Friendly AIs to ensure tech partners (although I wouldn't go as far as adopting Hereditary Rule instead of Representation). And then, you need to trade wisely. Not too much, not too little.
If you can isolate some AIs or drag them into wars, you'll get added benefits.


ps : if you built the Chichten Itza, did you Oracle Code of Laws ?
My mind is that Oracling Aesthetics would give you better results.
It gives some time to the AIs to send you missionaries (better diplo when you adopt a religion and Org Rel).
It gives you a headstart towards the really important wonders (G. Lib, NE).