warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
This thread always reminds me of this
Spoiler :
In the Beginning...
- Thread starter Berzerker
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timtofly
One Day
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I admire the confidence that modern humans have. I wonder if confidence is only a modern phenomenon. I realize that pointing out what humans wrote down, is not that glamorous. I guess the point is trying to come up with new imaginations.
Berzerker
Deity
fallen = came down, the sons of God are ETs
Morality is a human notion, one we dont associate with animals
If humans had never been confident before modern times, our species wouldn't have lived long enough to have this current modern time. And guess what - every human generation felt their time was modern. I seem to recall reading about an ancient Greek complaining about how rude and lazy and shiftless the young people of his time were. Not a lot has changed in the intervening millennia, has it?
Humans ARE animals. Unless you're a special case that happens to be a rock or a plant.
Lexicus
Deity
This is just a way of evading the point. Add the word "other" before animals and then respond to what was actually argued instead of picking semantic nits.
Like so many other people, Berzerker acts as though humans are not animals. The fact is that we are animals. We have more capabilities in a lot of ways than other animals - abstract reasoning being one of them - but that doesn't mean that other animals don't have a sense of right and wrong. Just watch a litter of puppies or kittens feeding. Some will push others away from the food and gobble down their portion as well, and some of the ones pushed away will resist and push back. They don't think it's right to be prevented from eating.
Of course I expect the protest that puppies and kittens aren't able to write books and sit around and discuss the morality of the supper dish. That doesn't negate the things they expect, how they relate to each other, and how they act when they don't get what they want.
Lexicus
Deity
You should have responded with that initially rather than pointing out that humans are animals. While we clearly are animals, we are also rather different from all other animals, but that's not the point.
I'm not familiar with the state of research on animal morality. From what I've read chimps and other apes demonstrate a sense of fairness, but I'm unaware of anything like that attested in dogs or cats. You got a link for that?
I'm not familiar with the state of research on animal morality. From what I've read chimps and other apes demonstrate a sense of fairness, but I'm unaware of anything like that attested in dogs or cats. You got a link for that?
Personal observation based on decades of raising dogs and cats. There may be laboratory studies of this behavior as well (I'd be surprised if there aren't), but I don't know exactly where you'd find them. As the saying goes, Google is your friend.
Berzerker
Deity
if a shark kills and eats a human we dont accuse it of immorality
why?
Because morality is a human notion, one we dont associate with animals
What part of "Humans ARE animals" was incomprehensible?
timtofly
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The Sons of God, never fell. Adam was the only one who it was said to be fallen.
The Serpent, and Nephilim, were the ETs in the narrative. My claim is that there were 6th day created beings through the entire universe and not just on the planet earth. That at one point they could travel throughout the universe, and even humans could do so, if they chose. I realize that most think that humans on earth were just children, but from the Bible, only Adam and Eve were "kept in the dark".
Wiping a human's memory does not make them less moral. It just means they do not associate life with morality. We would associate that with innocence or a childlike quality. I am not even going to go with the evolutional theory that we are a step above because of evolution. If other humans want to classify themselves as part of the animal world, perhaps animals may be offended....
Are other species confident? I think that species can survive without the need to feel confident. I have heard that wisdom is not confidence about one's own accomplishments, but acknowledging the past and it's experiences.
Knowing good and evil shows us the need to be moral through reasoning and experience. If other species had a knowledge of good and evil, they too would have some essence of morality. Having such knowledge does not make us moral beings. Morals are just an outcome of going through such experiences.
If we were told that killing is ok, because it may be justified, how long would it take for the species to figure out that killing may be wrong, and justification becomes too weak, to keep on killing? What makes killing even evil? If killing was in fact, not evil, then killing would never be morally wrong, no matter how often it was experienced. Animals kill all the time. Is it wrong for them to do so? We have made it legal to kill in some cases and we have adjusted by claiming that it is morally acceptable to do. If death is natural, then how can it even by evil? We even have to justify why we think that death is evil in some cases and not evil in other cases. Why do we even have the authority to do so? It seems because we do have the knowledge of what evil is.
Can we even imagine if killing was taken out of the moral system, and was never seen as evil? We would still be moral beings, but life would be drastically different. I don't think that we could conclude that we would kill each other off, nor would there be total peace and serenity from the lack of people being killed by other people. Now some claim that knowing evil, makes us human. I would claim that not knowing evil makes us something else besides the rest of the species on earth. From what knowledge I have, I would say that the other species on earth experience evil, even if they do not seem to have knowledge of evil. Not knowing evil, or experiencing evil would put us into a different realm of experience, than we can imagine, because we retain the knowledge of evil even if we do not experience it. I would go to the next step and say that we cannot even control evil. If we could it would have to be done on a level of thought, that would negate any experiences as well as imaginations. Having knowledge of evil and it having no effect, may make us immortal though, as if death was removed from every aspect of life. The universe is more vast than the necessity for there to be a limit to any life.
@ Leoreth
The video forgot to mention, that the Hebrew Torah was Tho and Ra.
The more people here insist on space aliens being part of this, the less seriously I take them. And I didn't take them seriously to begin with.
Where's the evidence?
Who said anything about wiping memories?
Newsflash: I'm human. That means I'm an animal. You're human. That makes you an animal, too. Neither of us are plants, and neither of us are rocks or even one of those weird in-between lifeforms that have characteristics of both plants and animals.
The difference is that we happen to be animals from a species that achieved self-awareness to such a degree that we're capable of abstract thought and planning for the future, both short and long term.
Most species survive on instinct. For confidence you need the ones that have more complex ways of thinking. Take crows, for example. They use tools, and they recognize individual humans well enough to teach others in their flock if a human is good or bad (according to how a crow interprets good or bad).
When my neighbor's kitten jumps up on the railing of my balcony, she's confident that she isn't going to lose her balance and fall (it's 3 storeys down to an asphalt driveway; she wouldn't land lightly on her feet and walk away unscathed if she did fall). It scares the hell out of me to see her doing this, though, because I'm capable of imagining numerous reasons why she could lose her balance and fall.
Morality is relative to the species. It was mind-boggling that when a gay penguin couple wanted to hatch an abandoned egg and raise the chick together, a bunch of human religious fundamentalists wrote in, aghast at the "immorality" of allowing this. The fact is that some penguins are gay, and after the egg has been laid in the nest, there's nothing a female penguin can do to care for it and raise the chick that a male penguin can't do every bit as well. All that bleating about the zookeepers allowing these penguins to live a "gay lifestyle" was utterly ridiculous. All the penguins wanted was to be a family.
Berzerker
Deity
do you accuse animals of immorality when they kill and eat people?
Berzerker
Deity
If they were from other worlds they came down here
I agree with that, somebody owes her cats an apology
Depends on the circumstances. If the human does something that harms the animal or otherwise encroaches on their territory or threatens them, they are justified in acting on their instinct.
IOW, don't stop and feed the bears, and if a mother bear and her cubs turn up on a golf course, don't just stand there and take a video and giggle about it. Get the hell out of her way.
It's actually a shortening of Thoth'Ra, they go into more detail on this in their other videos. Remember, the science is never complete, and the proper way to communicate the science is with even more whimsically edited youtube videos
Do you accuse people of immorality when they kill and eat animals?
I mean some do, but that's hardly a majority position.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking.
― John Kenneth Galbraith
Aim above morality. Be not simply good, be good for something. Henry David ThoreauSimilar threads
