IOT Organisational and Discussion Thread

[Tyo]

That was referring to the arguments going on above. Discussion should happen between NES and IOT. There's not a lot to be gained from in-house argument. Most of what's being said both for and against the merger in this thread is being said without taking into account the current opinions of NES. It's a bunch of assumptions we shouldn't make.

Not to mention I already got a reply on the other thread hinting that NESers are more open to cooperation now than ever. I also have a PM that I'm not going to make public on the moment that expands on this that extends to more than just one NESer's opinion.

 

[TheGryphonPrince]

That was referring to the arguments going on above. Discussion should happen between NES and IOT. There's not a lot to be gained from in-house argument. Most of what's being said both for and against the merger in this thread is being said without taking into account the current opinions of NES. It's a bunch of assumptions we shouldn't make.

We should merge only with both communities consent. If one or the other doesn't agree, merging will only cause trouble.

Not to mention I already got a reply on the other thread hinting that NESers are more open to cooperation now than ever. I also have a PM that I'm not going to make public on the moment that expands on this that extends to more than just one NESer's opinion.

Using PMs as an argument is like using a chat screencap as an IC excuse to declare war. There's no way to verify if what you're saying is fake or not.

Maybe a reply to that thread is OK, but we should wait until the NES community reaches a conclusion until attempting to merge.

 

[Tyo]

When the biggest reason IOTers don't want the merge is the argument that NESers don't want the merge, without talking to any NESers about it recently, its just a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's a similar argument as the old NESers used to stave off IOTers. It's not conducive to any kind of progress.

I digress, if IOT simply isn't open to the idea anymore than it isn't.


However, I feel the reply given on the other thread by an NESer is proof enough. Thlayil said to PM him for details, and I did. Out of respect for him and the discussion I'm keeping it under wraps until he says it's okay. You can ask him about it yourself if you want confirmation so bad. Also, considering most of the arguments in this thread do not take into account the opinion of NESers right now, I question the validity that my argument is somehow invalid because of this "he said she said" mentality. My claims are backed up by at least one active NESer. That's a lot more than every other post on this topic so far.

 

[christos200]

I myself see no reason for all this trouble. Why should we merge? Because a few people do not want to spend less than 30 seconds to go from one subforum to an other? Why have all those arguments and bad feeling for nothing?

 

[SouthernKing]

That was referring to the arguments going on above. Discussion should happen between NES and IOT. There's not a lot to be gained from in-house argument. Most of what's being said both for and against the merger in this thread is being said without taking into account the current opinions of NES. It's a bunch of assumptions we shouldn't make.

Basically this.

 

[Ailedhoo]

I concur with Tyo: talks should be set between NESers and IOTers. Of course the impact of the exodus and the debates from it have to considered for how they will impact the natures of the figures in whom will keep a foot in CFC and who would cast aside from CFC. Overall we need to consider.

I myself see no reason for all this trouble. Why should we merge? Because a few people do not want to spend less than 30 seconds to go from one subforum to an other? Why have all those arguments and bad feeling for nothing?

When we have entire tribalism with "us vs them" emerging the "seconds" thing is secondary to the damage done by separatism. The time thing is not simply the issue; its the whole destructive elements of separation and how we are hence set to "what is a NES?" or "what is a IOT?" in rigid elements. We should move to a state of great opening.

 

[Civ'ed]

When the biggest reason IOTers don't want the merge is the argument that NESers don't want the merge, without talking to any NESers about it recently, its just a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's a similar argument as the old NESers used to stave off IOTers. It's not conducive to any kind of progress.

I digress, if IOT simply isn't open to the idea anymore than it isn't.


However, I feel the reply given on the other thread by an NESer is proof enough. Thlayil said to PM him for details, and I did. Out of respect for him and the discussion I'm keeping it under wraps until he says it's okay. You can ask him about it yourself if you want confirmation so bad. Also, considering most of the arguments in this thread do not take into account the opinion of NESers right now, I question the validity that my argument is somehow invalid because of this "he said she said" mentality. My claims are backed up by at least one active NESer. That's a lot more than every other post on this topic so far.

How are we supposed to even know what the PM says if it's continuously under wraps? Is one NESer all NESers? Clearly not, because Ailed said NES isn't a hive-mind.

Saying NES and IOT are similar is like saying Japan and China are similar - they might be, but that doesn't mean you should stick them together.

 

[Ailedhoo]

How are we supposed to even know what the PM says if it's continuously under wraps? Is one NESer all NESers? Clearly not, because Ailed said NES isn't a hive-mind.

True that the PM will eventually need revealing but the talks are young and in the Frontier in its While We Wait there is talks not the merge but of things that may impact on any talks of a merge. Still Tyo has began talks which will gently grow to greater talks.

Saying NES and IOT are similar is like saying Japan and China are similar - they might be, but that doesn't mean you should stick them together.[/QUOTE]

Exaggerations are once again set up; to make out NES and IOT like separate nations is proof again why we need the merge as a way to remove this false illusion of camping. There should not be a nationalism around NES and IOT for it only hinders the creativity and promotes ill set gate keeping that drives away potential gifted or disillusioned the elders.

In other words Civ think carefully before using the Japan and China claimants for that would imply NES and IOT are akin to nations when in fact they share so much that it is clear they are from one culture and the differences we exaggerate originate in village notions. In other words they are Welsh villages or even two close hamlets. I hereby declare CFC is Wales, Sid Meier is the monarch of the United Kingdom, the Other Game section is the county of Ceredigion and that IOT and NES are both in range to become own united settlement.

 

[NinjaCow64]

How are we supposed to even know what the PM says if it's continuously under wraps? Is one NESer all NESers? Clearly not, because Ailed said NES isn't a hive-mind.

Saying NES and IOT are similar is like saying Japan and China are similar - they might be, but that doesn't mean you should stick them together.

But China is mainland Japan.

Seriously though, can someone make a discussion thread for this? This isn't really the place for this discussion.

 

[Ailedhoo]

True NC: we are going to need a thread for both NES and IOT. Whether we need "house threads" for each to talk among themselves is another question but we are going to need a common place.

The question be: where should this thread for both be held?

 

[Civ'ed]

Exaggerations are once again set up; to make out NES and IOT like separate nations is proof again why we need the merge as a way to remove this false illusion of camping.

I apologise, there wasn't a better example of, you know, culturally similar communities that have had cold relations but are slowly warming up.
EDIT: TO adress NC's point of a better place for this discussion:
There isn't one, and the best way would be to never have this discussion. All we end up with are tears, irrational hate for each other and no merger.

 

[Sonereal]

It would end up the like the last five discussion threads: nowhere.

 

[Robert Can't]

There isn't one, and the best way would be to never have this discussion. All we end up with are tears, irrational hate for each other and no merger.

So much this, every time this has been brought up we've (or at least I've) had huge amounts of abuse hurled at us from the other camp.
Considering it was the major reason that I took a break from CFC in September it is certainly not something I want to go through again. The process simply isn't worth it in my mind especial not if it would end up with this being constant clashes between the communities rather than just clashes every time this gets suggested.

 

[W|M]

You also seem to forget that NESers are mostly massive anuses

Moderator Action: I might suggest that eye for eye tactics are probably not the best way forward. Please refrain from direct insults, regardless of the past history.

 

[Ailedhoo]

I apologise, there wasn't a better example of, you know, culturally similar communities that have had cold relations but are slowly warming up.
EDIT: TO adress NC's point of a better place for this discussion:
There isn't one, and the best way would be to never have this discussion. All we end up with are tears, irrational hate for each other and no merger.

So much this, every time this has been brought up we've (or at least I've) had huge amounts of abuse hurled at us from the other camp.
Considering it was the major reason that I took a break from CFC in September it is certainly not something I want to go through again. The process simply isn't worth it in my mind especial not if it would end up with this being constant clashes between the communities rather than just clashes every time this gets suggested.

If we cannot bring the subject then that will be a hindrance to creative consideration, cause the act of objecting to the talks is a intellectual hindrance. The "other camp" is further evidence for the call to merge as it causes to be performing Dr Seuss's "The Sneetches." To attempt to block a new debate over past hindrances is not a sign of wisdom but of weakness, because fail to debate will only cause great tensions among and between. If you wish to attack the freedom of expressing of a considered policy then go ahead; you will be remembered for your actions.

Henceforth I will now speak to NC: it is early to begin talks in Site Feedback but we are going to need it as a central talking point for the debate. I suggest we have a threat in IOT and NES on the matter to allow everyone to talk, then create a thread in Site Feedback for a united discussion. After the exodus it will be important we advertise the talks well. Whatever we do we must not bar the talks; they must commence.

 

[christos200]

I believe that we are having bad time and arguments for nothing. For so many years we have been separate subforums. How has this ever hurt us? Do you think that more NESers will join IOTs just because both games are in the same subforum? Wrong. Those NESers that join IOTs already do so. Same with IOTers who join NESes. Those IOTers who join NESes already do so.

So, since the only advantage that a merge would bring (more playerbase) is proved to be false, there is no need for any merge.

Really, Ailed, you are the only IOTer who wants the merge. Maybe Tyo, although I am not sure about him. Most IOTers do not want the merge. So, why should it be enforced when the majority of IOTers have already stated that they disagree? And before you say anything about how I know this, look at the last three pages and count the number of people who support merge and those who do not.

 

[BSmith1068]

So, since the only advantage that a merge would bring (more playerbase) is proved to be false, there is no need for any merge.

I'm trying my best to stay out of this conversation, but I feel that I must point out that there are a lot of assumptions going into this statement.

 

[Ailedhoo]

I believe that we are having bad time and arguments for nothing. For so many years we have been separate subforums. How has this ever hurt us? Do you think that more NESers will join IOTs just because both games are in the same subforum? Wrong. Those NESers that join IOTs already do so. Same with IOTers who join NESes. Those IOTers who join NESes already do so.

Years? Did not IOT's perent, OT Poster Empires, began in 2010? For time IOT was placed in the Forum Games section I heard, then it got its own section but without post count.

So, since the only advantage that a merge would bring (more playerbase) is proved to be false, there is no need for any merge.

I channel BSmith's comment to this; there is lots of presumptions. Also the only benefit? As I made clear the prime advantage would be to stop the stupidity that is the camping, cleansing it with a unity of many blessings. There is currently imaginary barriers created thanks to the hostility emerging from the camps; I speak of hostilities akin to "The Sneetches." A merge would make any NES/IOT camping hostilities more ridicules and more looked down upon by enshrining a communion of considerations.

Really, Ailed, you are the only IOTer who wants the merge. Maybe Tyo, although I am not sure about him. Most IOTers do not want the merge. So, why should it be enforced when the majority of IOTers have already stated that they disagree? And before you say anything about how I know this, look at the last three pages and count the number of people who support merge and those who do not.

I and Tyo are not the solo acts in this play for arguments for a merge; the IOTers that have spoken on the IOT thread on the NES subforum are open to the idea of the Story Games or World Building Games. WGB would unite IOT and NES on CFC just as STG has united IOT and NES on the Frontier. It appears akin ti the presumptions made about NESer opinion we are going to need a measurement for IOTer opinion less either nay or yes make great presumptions without evidence.

I have come to realize though that the greater issue is fatigue from the debates but after the exodus it has come not just notions to certain objectors leaving but also with the current number issues in CFC NES. Of course we will need time to measure if this is a long term problem but that risk leaving things too late.

I will later on forge the two threads, one on NES subforum and one on IOT subforum. The threads will provide stable grounds for talking about merging, includes a iron enforced rule of civilly so that the 'dramas' so feared may be deterred; whether this will mean the serious red diamond I would have to ask BSmith's permission but I doubt that would be necessary. The main thing is to lessen fear and to ensure that what has to be voiced is voiced. Once enough times in these two threads will past a third thread will be opened on Forum Suggestions to serve as a criteria of the united debates. Polls and such may then be deployed for either the current status or merge.

 

[christos200]

You might be right. You might be wrong. But one thing is sure: A large part of IOTers are opposed to the merge. Even if they are a minority, they are quite a sizable one. A merge should not happen with a 51% majority when at least half of the IOTers disagree with the merge. If there is a merge, the vast majority of IOTers should agree.

 

[Ailedhoo]

You might be right. You might be wrong. But one thing is sure: A large part of IOTers are opposed to the merge. Even if they are a minority, they are quite a sizable one. A merge should not happen with a 51% majority when at least half of the IOTers disagree with the merge. If there is a merge, the vast majority of IOTers should agree.

How vast? This make the poll pointless if we do not know how vast and would make hence the policy more difficult to pass than Freemasons agreeing on what they want to eat. How vast? 55% 60% Anything higher than 60% is unfair. Should we hence declare that if 51% of IOTers oppose the merge we conduct the merge as they would be going against the 49% wishes? I think better measure is simple; the 45%-55% range or 40-60% will be set to... I do not whether it be best for the mods super votes or some kind of council compromise but whatever the case if we start going with "only if vast votes" then we have to do it in a way that encourages the equality of the votes, unless you wish to make those oppose feel so confident in their defense that they don't feel the requirement to vote.

Yes... we are going to have to see to the twin threads so we can set such talks to the finer patch. We can also deploy a simple poll to deploy positions for each thread.

Once we know we can see how large is the support and how large is the opposition but we must also set another question: the mixed. How do dual citizens in these elections? They must be heard; their is risk in them voting in both threads but it would be cruel to force them to 'pick a side' especially if it comes down to tactical choices.