Iraq protests

[Mouthwash]

Wait, imagine actually believing this lmao

Being 'sane' or 'reasonable' would be an alien feeling for some, yes.

Iran-shilling? The Hell sort of accusation are you leveling at that poster you're quoting? It sounds highly disingenuous, slanderous, and dripping in a certain form of vile warmongering propaganda.

It's not that he's denying Iran wants nuclear weapons - that would be foolish, or perhaps willfully blind. It's that he seems to consider their intentions as completely honorable and peaceful.

 

[El_Machinae]

What I've never understood is why the other European countries seem to be less afraid of a nuclear Iran than the USA is. I understand Israel's concern, it pays to be wary. But I'd expect a ring of similarly concerned countries within the fallout radius.

 

[Berzerker]

I dont know about Jordan but SA sure wants us to take Iran out

 

[Farm Boy]

Europe has so long relied on their semi-sane gorilla to threaten foes with obliteration I assume it's something to do with actually paying for the price of deterrence being considered uncivilized. Canada is closer to the beast and gets it better. But I haven't entirely sorted it out. It's not entirely a Europe thing, the US watched Israel, India, Pakistan, and North Korea happen and certainly wasn't willing to pay the price in horror. It's a good deal until it isn't.

 

[Patine]

It's not that he's denying Iran wants nuclear weapons - that would be foolish, or perhaps willfully blind. It's that he seems to consider their intentions as completely honorable and peaceful.

Please name me a government in power today whose intentions could truly be labelled as "completely honourable and peaceful," if you could?

 

[rah]

Maybe the Swiss

 

[Snerk]

What I've never understood is why the other European countries seem to be less afraid of a nuclear Iran than the USA is. I understand Israel's concern, it pays to be wary. But I'd expect a ring of similarly concerned countries within the fallout radius.

This is an odd statement seeing how Europe pressed as much as they could to maintain the Iranian nuclear deal. Which was the best feasible alternative for a non nuclear Iranian future. If Washington first priority was too keep this from happening, they would not have scrapped the deal, restarted the sanctions, and assassinate Soleimani. All things that puts Teheran back on track with nuclear ambitions. This time less as a way to gain influence but more as a pure survival mechanism.

This plays perfectly into Israel and Netanyahu's strategy. Likud without Iran as an existential threat, is an obsolete party in a lot of ways. Netanyahu needs Iran back on it's nuclear track. As far as his political life if concerned, an Iran without nuclear ambitions is an existential threat. One can draw parallels of that to Pompeo, Bolton and pals, though not quite to the same degree.

 

[Patine]

Maybe the Swiss

"Peaceful", yes, but I'd argue many of their trade and banking policies and manipulations, have been less than "honourable."

 

[El_Machinae]

This is an odd statement seeing how Europe pressed as much as they could to maintain the Iranian nuclear deal. Which was the best feasible alternative for a non nuclear Iranian future. If Washington first priority was too keep this from happening, they would not have scrapped the deal, restarted the sanctions, and assassinate Soleimani. All things that puts Teheran back on track with nuclear ambitions. This time less as a way to gain influence but more as a pure survival mechanism.

Yeah, the European acceptance of the Iran deal was a good place in its favour. Because, as I said, they should be implicitly more cautious of a nuclear Iran than Americans are.

But if they broadly agreed that it was the superior option, then we also have to wonder why it is so hard to get Israel on board. Honestly, I find the diversity of opinions on the topic quite confounded

 

[El_Machinae]

That's why I mentioned a ring of concern, based on fallout, at least. Like, no one the least bit near wants a local nuclear war.

 

[El_Machinae]

And so, the very broad difference when it comes to dealing with the threat is confusing. Partisanship aside, dealing with a perceived threat tends to bring out people's better ideas.

 

[Hrothbern]

What I've never understood is why the other European countries seem to be less afraid of a nuclear Iran than the USA is. I understand Israel's concern, it pays to be wary. But I'd expect a ring of similarly concerned countries within the fallout radius.

EU countries will not be happy at all with a nuclear Iran.
That's why they made that agreement with the US and Iran before Trump blew it up.
The EU favors in general the carrot over the stick. And the EU stick is very small as well.


But first some context:

Although it is now along time ago...
Let's not forget how Russia and the US squashed France and the UK in the Suez crisis when these countries intervened in Egypt for commercial protection of the Suez canal.
Let's not forget how the US pressured the old western empires to give up their colonies, whether there would be a stable government lined up there or not.
Let's not forget that in domestic politics of former European countries many people did not want intervening in former colonies with military power because of that colonial abuse of the past.
And in general, because of all the wars on European soil, almost like Civil wars of "Europe" there is in general a much higher war weariness among the population than in for example the US (only 1 Civil war a long time ago). than in for example the UK (how many centuries ago had the UK a war on its own soil ? and those few bombings of WW2 are peanuts compared to what happened on mainland Europe).

Now.. we do live many decades later
but
say that Germany, 10 years after the fall of the wall, integration East-Germany up and running, would have put on the agenda in 2000 to build up a real German army again.... lots of surplus available public money to start up a military industry... it would boost the economy as well.
How many fearmongering articles would be there in the international newsmedia on the Krauts, the Nazis, reviving ?


Trump is forcing the issue now:
"Follow me and I decide what and how"
Ohh and BTW that agreement of that former POTUS you made with Iran and theUS does not have any value.
Ohh and BTW when I change tack again... and again... as with North Korea... because of personal political interests.... just follow me blindly.
That does not leave much room for an EU policy on Iran worthwhile to develop.

El_Machinae... my guess is that you (and I) get an answer on your question when Trump would be re-elected.
Just like with Brexit... in case that referendum would decide to exit... the EU will, I guess, have written down a full scenario with branches in case Trump is re-elected.
Not because they like it, but because they have to.
It will be a lose-lose for US-EU

 

[Hygro]

I dont know about Jordan but SA sure wants us to take Iran out

South Africa? South Ameri ohhh

 

[Cheetah]

Saudi Arabia.

As for the thread topic, and the news:

- I support the Iraqi protesters, and hope they manage to oust more of the corrupt politicians. While the Prime Minister has resigned, there are many more to go, and it's an uphill struggle as long as Iran keep interfering to spread sectarianism.

- Trump did the right thing here. This might even have been for the right reasons. Soleimani has long played a covert war of terrorism and assassination against the US and its allies. That makes him a valid target in my book.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

The Iraqi Parliament put out statements to the effect that they are going to attempt to remove all US forces from the country.

Who would have thought this would be the silver lining of the assassination?

 

[choxorn]

- I support the Iraqi protesters, and hope they manage to oust more of the corrupt politicians. While the Prime Minister has resigned, there are many more to go, and it's an uphill struggle as long as Iran keep interfering to spread sectarianism.

I agree with this.

- Trump did the right thing here. This might even have been for the right reasons. Soleimani has long played a covert war of terrorism and assassination against the US and its allies. That makes him a valid target in my book.

But not this, not at all. Even if that's true about Soleimani, that doesn't mean it's a good idea to assassinate him, and it's certainly not a good idea to airstrike him and kill a bunch of other people at the same time.

 

[Cheetah]

Everyone who were killed were Quds or PMS members, afaik. All valid targets.

And what do you mean with «even if that's true about Soleimani»?

 

[Traitorfish]

Everyone who were killed were Quds or militia members. All valid targets.

The Quds Force is part of the security forces of the Islamic Republic of Iran. The militias are part of the Popular Mobilization Forces, a paramilitary wing of the security forces of the Republic of Iraq. Both are shady, but they are part of the state security apparatus of two countries with which the United States is not at war, and one of which is at least nominally its ally. How do you figure those as "valid targets"?

 

[Patine]

- Trump did the right thing here. This might even have been for the right reasons. Soleimani has long played a covert war of terrorism and assassination against the US and its allies. That makes him a valid target in my book.

I disagree. You're praising utter tokenism as though it's an accomplishment. And no doubt terrorists working for the CIA and Mossad, big and horrid international terrorist groups in their own right that should also be brought to final justice, are sharing in the being lauded for bringing down a terrorist. As I said, it comes down to being about as admirable as one gangster killing another over drug turf.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

The administration is putting out the line that this was done to prevent an imminent attack by Iran because wouldn't you know how much the real world resembles 24 with Jack Bauer?