Is a hamburger a sandwich?

[sophie]

Yeah, but I was asking "what's the difference between a wrap and a burrito?"

and you responded with



and that confused me.

Either way, I agree that burritos and a wraps can be both classified as meta-wraps.

Yeah, totally misread it. I assumed you were going back to a previous argument that if burgers are sandwiches then surely burritos must be sandwiches too.

 

[Camikaze]

When considering the establishment of social conventions it should be noted there are a lot more Americans saying sandwich than there are Australians saying 'sub' or 'roll' so if we apply weight by usage the American convention will be correct.

I'll take quality of opinion over quantity.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I'll take quality of opinion over quantity.

Well, in terms of value judgements I probably will too. But for social conventions regarding what something is called, it seems like whatever is most broadly understood would be the superior choice, so rate of usage becomes most significant. From that standpoint, American English wins every time.

 

[azzaman333]

Well, in terms of value judgements I probably will too. But for social conventions regarding what something is called, it seems like whatever is most broadly understood would be the superior choice, so rate of usage becomes most significant. From that standpoint, American English wins every time.

American English is yet another example of American's inexplicably doing things differently just to be wrong.

 

[BvBPL]

Pulitzer Prize winning philosopher/cognitive scientist [wiki]Douglas Hofstadter[/wiki] (co-authored with Emmanuel Sander) On Sandwiches

Book is Surfaces and Essences: Analogy as the Fuel and Fire of Thinking

Anyone who is interested in these sorts of categorization questions should find the book rather insightful.

I cannot readily accept this philosophical definition of a sandwich as being anything that is placed between two like things. While I recognize sandwich has entered the vulgate to mean exactly that, this definition is problematic in the technical culinary field as it is simultaneously too broad and too narrow. It would include an ice cream sandwich as a sandwich making appears as though ice cream is modifying sandwich when it is the other way around. Similarly it would likely place the hot dog in the realm of the sandwich when the hot dog is not a sandwich (more on this later). At the same time, the use is too narrow as it would exclude open face sandwiches from being recognized as sandwiches.

This is not to say that the definition is wholly unhelpful. Certainly having a composure of A-B-A is at least indicative of sandwichness. That is helpful, but is not dispositive in itself.


Expectation of Sandwichness
Instead of attempting to develop a uniform definition of sandwich as a first principle, it seems better to first discuss the experiential definition of a sandwich. To this end, whether or not something is a sandwich is informed by the following hypothetical:

If you asked me for a sandwich and I offered you X foodstuff, would that appease you desire for a sandwich?

Where the answer is yes then the thing is a sandwich, or likely to be one. Where the answer is no then the thing is not a sandwich.

Sandwiches and bread (slice or split bun)
There are a number of things that are undeniably sandwiches: French dips, Monte Cristos, PB & Js, Ruebens, etc. These all have the notable quality of being composed of material between two slices of bread.

Then there are the myriad of grinders, hoagies, heroes, po'boys, cheesesteaks, subs, etc. These are often, but not exclusively, composed of a long bun spilt not quite all the way through so there we have examples of sandwiches that are between one piece of bread.

The Strange Case of the Hot Dog
There are things that are not sandwiches despite having qualities similar to the sandwich. Most notable is the hot dog. Like most (but not all!) sandwiches, the hot dog consists of savory meat contained by bread, in this case a split roll. Despite Gori's statement to the contrary, a hot dog is not a sandwich.

One curious factor about the hot dog is that it is dominated by a single foodstuff, the hot dog sausage itself. In contrast, most sandwiches are a combination of several foodstuffs in the bread. A Rueben isn't a Rueben w/o corned beef AND kraut. In contrast, the hot dog remains a hot dog even if there isn't any onions with it (although why you would have a hot dog sans onions is beyond me).

(As an aside, there is a notable exception in the grilled cheese sandwich. However, the grilled cheese sandwich is made with two slices of bread rather than a split roll, and the grilled cheese is an obvious simplification of other things also recognizable as sandwiches. Of course the quesadilla, which is almost the exact same thing, is not a sandwich, but the loaf of French bread with brie is.)

(As a further aside, the hot dog raises the interesting question of whether or not a lobster roll is a sandwich. Like the hot dog, the lobster roll is dominated by a single foodstuff and in a split roll, but unlike the hot dog (and like most sandwiches) lettuce and other secondary ingredients are required to make the ur-lobster roll.)


Burrittos and Wraps
We have the burrito which is a composition of many things contained within a single piece of tortilla. It is not a sandwich.

The wrap provides us with a poser. The wrap is likely to be composed of the same things as a sandwich save that it is wrapped in a single piece of bread. Based upon the number of wraps in "sandwich platters" I've had at catered meetings, it seems likely that the wrap does fulfill the criteria of whether or not what is received satisfies the recipient as a sandwich. That said, if you had a platter of sandwiches and wraps in front of a person and asked her to pick which items were sandwiches and which were not, the wrap would likely fall into the latter category.

Back to the Burger
Viewing this all, a simple list of attributes that qualifies one thing as a sandwich does not appear to be helpful because for every attribute listed above, a counterexample that breaks the rule can readily be cited. It is probably better to instead assess the sandwichness of a thing as a analysis of all the relevant factors with no one thing necessarily outweighing another.

Bringing the inquiry to the hamburger: if you asked for a sandwich and were given a burger, would you feel your request had been satisfied?

This, I think, is the best way to view the question at hand.

 

[Gori the Grey]

If I asked for a sandwich and you gave me a hamburger, I would be perfectly satisfied.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If I asked for a sandwich and you gave me a hamburger, I would be perfectly satisfied.

Being as big as I am I generally need more than one sandwich to be perfectly satisfied, even if it is a hamburger sandwich.

 

[Borachio]

Depends how large the sandwich is.

An elephant sandwiched between two 4 tonne bags of flour, might be more than I could manage at one sitting. With or without chili sauce.

 

[Lohrenswald]

Aight folks, have you honestly ever gone to a restaurant and simply said "I want a sandwich" or "I want a hamburger" instead of say "I want menu item number x"?

Because I can't imagine any sort of establishment giving you something for the mere request "I want a sandwich".

 

[Borachio]

Honestly, sandwiches are something I usually make for myself and take with me.

I have very occasionally bought a sandwich from a shop, when out and about. And I once even ate a sandwich in a hospital.

Never in a restaurant.

There was that time I bought a sausage sandwich in a Welsh bus station. But it had been in a heating cabinet for at least two days, and it was literally inedible. Which is saying a great deal. If I can get something in my mouth and swallow it, it counts as edible in my book.

I was also very hungry on that occasion and there was nothing else to buy. Or I wouldn't have.

 

[azzaman333]

Aight folks, have you honestly ever gone to a restaurant and simply said "I want a sandwich" or "I want a hamburger" instead of say "I want menu item number x"?

Because I can't imagine any sort of establishment giving you something for the mere request "I want a sandwich".

What if the menu has a "chicken sandwich" on it? Are you ordering pieces of chicken on two slices of bread or a chicken patty on a bread roll or something in between?

 

[Lohrenswald]

Pictures.

What's a bread roll?

 

[Borachio]

*sigh*

Here are some soft bread rolls.

And here are some crispy bread rolls.

Baps (not a lot of difference between a bap and a roll):

Burger Bap:

Bun:

Spoiler :

Confused?

 

[Lohrenswald]

Alright. We call bread rolls "round pieces".

I think that qualifies as bread.

 

[BvBPL]

Aight folks, have you honestly ever gone to a restaurant and simply said "I want a sandwich" or "I want a hamburger" instead of say "I want menu item number x"?

Because I can't imagine any sort of establishment giving you something for the mere request "I want a sandwich".

There are ample restaurants where "hamburger" is a sufficient order. Sandwich though would probably be not be descriptive enough barring other circumstances.

 

[Gori the Grey]

There are ample restaurants where "hamburger" is a sufficient order. Sandwich though would probably be not be descriptive enough barring other circumstances.

An important point. There is, in effect, no such thing as "a sandwich."

But this troubles our inquiry. If there is no such thing as a sandwich, how could a hamburger be one?

 

[BvBPL]

Of course there is such a thing as a sandwich. It is simply too broad a term to be used by itself in ordering at a restaurant.

 

[Gori the Grey]

You tell me (and I know myself) that if you go into a restaurant and ask for "a sandwich," the server will not know what thing you would like. Hence "a sandwich" is not a thing.

 

[Lohrenswald]

That's poor reasoning, Gori.
There are many types of men, but saying that you met a man doesn't describe the man, so men aren't a thing.

I think you're just trying to be pedantic

 

[BvBPL]

You will get a statement that a few different sandwiches are available and a request for clarification on which one you would like.

If you come to my house and ask for a sandwich then you will get one.

Existence of a thing is not predicated upon the ability of waitstaff to comprehend you absent additional informAtion.