Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[EnglishEdward]

Calling Sturgeon hysterical.

But I did not call Nicola Sturgeon hysterical.

I referred to her "hysterical approach" which is something different, put on.

 

[Takhisis]

Then we'll say that you're being hypocritical, but that's not the same as calling you a hypocrite.

 

[Silurian]

"" "It's not how you start your life that's important, it's how you finish" — Ian Paisley Jr on Martin McGuinness"" from Twitter

The death of Martin McGuinness, the former IRA commander, will reduce the legitimacy in some quarters of the current Sinn Féin leadership who did not fight in the troubles.

The government has stated that there will not be a hard border with the south.
How would you man it anyway, as who would want to be the first customs officer to die.

Theresa May has made much of no deal is better than a bad deal.
If there is no deal there will be a hard border.

So we could end up with customs checks going south into the EU and nothing going north. The UK would have to put customs checks between Great Britain and Northern Ireland where they could be safely manned. The existing customs checks on arrivals by air and sea in Northern Ireland would remain relatively safe. Tariffs could be collected by self assessment but there would be great opportunities for evasion.

Such a status could be good for Northern Ireland as goods could be imported at or below cost (no profit, head office costs etc) to reduce the tariff. Then proccessed to add value and then shipped to the mainland.

If Northern Ireland had this special status Scotland would want it too.

-------
Reaction to Martin McGuinness.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2017/mar/21/death-martin-mcguinness-reaction-politics-live

 

[EnglishEdward]

The government has stated that there will not be a hard border with the south.
How would you man it anyway, as who would want to be the first customs officer to die.

Theresa May has made much of no deal is better than a bad deal.
If there is no deal there will be a hard border.

So we could end up with customs checks going south into the EU and nothing going north. The UK would have to put customs checks between Great Britain and Northern Ireland where they could be safely manned. The existing customs checks on arrivals by air and sea in Northern Ireland would remain relatively safe. Tariffs could be collected by self assessment but there would be great opportunities for evasion.

Such a status could be good for Northern Ireland as goods could be imported at or below cost (no profit, head office costs etc) to reduce the tariff. Then proccessed to add value and then shipped to the mainland.

I don't think that anyone in mainland Britain would really care tuppence if the Northern Irish could
import a German BMW car via Eire without paying any 5% import duty and drive that around there.

Not really sure how they could add value to it. Any import tax would be applied on its arrival in Britain.

Gibraltar, The Isle of Man and Channel Islands already enjoy a number of peculiar tax advantages,
and the Northern Irish peoples would merely join them with their own albeit different potential benefits.

As for Scotland, the geographical and historical background is quite different.

 

[really]

NI is part of the EU and the UK, the others are not.

What standards would apply in NI?
Who would decide or arbitrate those standards?
Would NI be subject to the European courts?
Would Unionists be happy with any of that?
Trying to carve out a part of a country will only create problems, and wouldn't help NI exporters at all - goods going south would be subject to the rules of the EU.

I don't see any positives for NI whatsoever in this adventure.

 

[EnglishEdward]

You mentioned standards.

If the UK wishes to export goods to the EU, it will clearly need to continue to comply with EU technical standards.

For instance the cars we make for export to there have the steering wheel on the left to support driving on the right side of the road.

A question I ponder is; when the UK leaves the EU, will Eire change to driving on the right?

 

[Arakhor]

If the UK wishes to export goods to the EU, it will clearly need to continue to comply with EU technical standards.

That is the big reason why leaving the EU will not reduce any of the alleged complexity in commercial production, so the oft-mentioned claims of needing 1200 pages of regulations for cabbages or bananas are not going to be mitigated for anyone remotely interested in exporting to the EU.

 

[really]

You mentioned standards.

If the UK wishes to export goods to the EU, it will clearly need to continue to comply with EU technical standards.

For instance the cars we make for export to there have the steering wheel on the left to support driving on the right side of the road.

A question I ponder is; when the UK leaves the EU, will Eire change to driving on the right?

Ireland, Malta and Cyprus will still drive on the left.

I am not aware of any standards around this.

We will probably have bigger problems to tackle.

 

[Silurian]

I don't think that anyone in mainland Britain would really care tuppence if the Northern Irish could
import a German BMW car via Eire without paying any 5% import duty and drive that around there.

Not really sure how they could add value to it. Any import tax would be applied on its arrival in Britain.

Gibraltar, The Isle of Man and Channel Islands already enjoy a number of peculiar tax advantages,
and the Northern Irish peoples would merely join them with their own albeit different potential benefits.

I was not thinking of BMWs, I would assume you would have to pay the import duty when you registered the car.

I was thinking of importing the components of a machine and assembling them in Northern Ireland.
I assume that duty would be based on the price of the components.
So if ACME Eire sells goods to ACME NI at or below cost so they will pay less duty.
ACME NI then puts the goods together and sells the finished product to the mainland. (Thats where it adds the value)
The profits are then sent to ACME Luxemburg which invests money in ACME Eire to pay for its costs.
This could be done in the rest of the UK but would be even harder to spot if there was no checks at the border.

From The Guardian

The European anti-fraud office (known as Olaf from its French name, Office de Lutte Anti-Fraude) has recommended the UK pay €1.98bn into the EU budget to compensate for lost customs duties, as a result of a failure by British customs officials to crack down on criminal gangs using fake invoices and making false claims about the value of clothes and shoes imported from China.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-imports-scam-say-eu-anti-fraud-investigators

Goods manufactured in Northern Ireland would not be liable for tariffs when they are transported to the mainland since they have already been paid when the compenents entered Northern Ireland. Any proposed customs checks between Northern Ireland would only be able too detect any obvious smuggling unless Northern Ireland was treated as being outside the UK for tariff purposes.

As for Scotland, the geographical and historical background is quite different.

Scotland and Northern Ireland are geographically and historically linked.

Until the about 250 years ago the quickest means of transport was by sea. It is only 12 miles from Scotland to Northern Ireland so you do not need to sail out of sight of land.

From Wiki

The Gaels (Irish pronunciation: [ɡeːlˠ], Scottish Gaelic pronunciation: [kɛː.əlˠ]; Irish: Na Gaeil, Scottish Gaelic: Na Gàidheil) are an ethnolinguistic group native to northwestern Europe. They are associated with the Gaelic languages: a branch of the Celtic languages comprising Irish, Manx and Scottish Gaelic. Historically, the ethnonyms Irish and Scots referred to the Gaels in general, but the scope of those nationalities is today more complex.

Gaelic language and culture originated in Ireland, extending to Dál Riata in western Scotland. In antiquity the Gaels traded with the Roman Empire and also raided Roman Britain. In the Middle Ages, Gaelic culture became dominant throughout the rest of Scotland and the Isle of Man. There was also some Gaelic settlement in Wales and Cornwall. In the Viking Age, small numbers of Vikings raided and settled in Gaelic lands, becoming the Norse-Gaels. In the 9th century, Dál Riata and Pictland merged to form the Gaelic Kingdom of Alba. Meanwhile, Gaelic Ireland was made up of several kingdoms, with a High King often claiming lordship over them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaels

 

[Takhisis]

Scotland and Northern Ireland are geographically and historically linked.

Let Edward find out whence came the bulk of the Protestant population in Northern Ireland.

 

[innonimatu]

I was thinking of importing the components of a machine and assembling them in Northern Ireland.
I assume that duty would be based on the price of the components.
So if ACME Eire sells goods to ACME NI at or below cost so they will pay less duty.
ACME NI then puts the goods together and sells the finished product to the mainland. (Thats where it adds the value)
The profits are then sent to ACME Luxemburg which invests money in ACME Eire to pay for its costs.
This could be done in the rest of the UK but would be even harder to spot if there was no checks at the border.

I don't know how VAT works there, but here companies have to keep records of everything they bought, to offset against what they sell. As well as inventory. And they do get inspected on it. A company would not get away with importing components illegally and then exporting the finished product. Not for long at least.

As for final consumers evading duties on imports, that can happen. But there are already different levels of taxation among EU member countries, given that duties are not expected to be high this will be little different from buying across the border between many of those countries. Something that people near those borders do all the time.

And regarding tax evasion... ACME Luxemburg? It's the UK, you may as well set up ACME Bermunas, ACME Cayman, or ACME Jersey, or whatever. The UK invented the so-called tax heavens. It would be a good day for the britons and the world if Brexit killed those, not going to happen though.

 

[EnglishEdward]

I was not thinking of BMWs, I would assume you would have to pay the import duty when you registered the car.

I was thinking of importing the components of a machine and assembling them in Northern Ireland.
I assume that duty would be based on the price of the components.
So if ACME Eire sells goods to ACME NI at or below cost so they will pay less duty.
ACME NI then puts the goods together and sells the finished product to the mainland. (Thats where it adds the value)
The profits are then sent to ACME Luxemburg which invests money in ACME Eire to pay for its costs.
This could be done in the rest of the UK but would be even harder to spot if there was no checks at the border.

Thank you for explaining what you were talking about. However I am not sure that any profit on ducking the payment of
import taxes on components would necessarily cover the additional costs of shipping from and to Northern Ireland.

I have read with interest your link to the Guardian and quote from it below:

In one example given by the anti-fraud team, women’s trousers imported from China were declared in the UK at an
average price of €0.91 a kg, although market prices for cotton were €1.44kg, a disparity that failed to raise the alarm for the British.

Thing is selecting the price one chooses to declare on a form to redue tax liability is, apart from being in your very own example above,
endemic to business and in many industries it is the going practice, e.g. it is the norm, or the working rule, rather than the exception.
There are over 60 million British people in the UK so the 2 billion EU fine works out at about 300 euros per UK national person.

Frankly I am not interested in paying 1,200 euros (about £1,000) as my share (me, wife & 2 kids) of the penalty to the European Union.
The Guardian reports that the EU claim that the UK has not suppressed such fraud, hence our liability; but perhaps our police have
better priorities. For instance I refer to yesterday's BBC report of a "Sharp rise in attacks involving corrosive fluids in London"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-39328233

Increased from 261 in 2015 to 454 in 2016.

It is horrible isn't it!


And the geographical and historical differences between Scotland and Northern Ireland that I alluded are that Scotland has a land
border with England but not with the rest of the EU while Northern Ireland has a land border with EU member Eire, but not with Britain;
and that Scotland had a long history as an independent kingdom before King James took over England after Queen Elizabeth I died.

Let Edward find out whence came the bulk of the Protestant population in Northern Ireland.

I am pleased to advise you that I understand that they were mostly born in Northern Ireland.

 

[EnglishEdward]

I don't know how VAT works there, but here companies have to keep records of everything they bought, to offset against what they sell. As well as inventory. And they do get inspected on it. A company would not get away with importing components illegally and then exporting the finished product. Not for long at least.

As for final consumers evading duties on imports, that can happen. But there are already different levels of taxation among EU member countries, given that duties are not expected to be high this will be little different from buying across the border between many of those countries. Something that people near those borders do all the time.

And regarding tax evasion... ACME Luxemburg? It's the UK, you may as well set up ACME Bermunas, ACME Cayman, or ACME Jersey, or whatever. The UK invented the so-called tax heavens. It would be a good day for the britons and the world if Brexit killed those, not going to happen though.

I agree. We are reluctant to cancel Brexit merely to save some accountant the time of filling in an offset spreadheet.

 

[EnglishEdward]

That is the big reason why leaving the EU will not reduce any of the alleged complexity in commercial production, so the oft-mentioned claims of needing 1200 pages of regulations for cabbages or bananas are not going to be mitigated for anyone remotely interested in exporting to the EU.

Whoaah. You have finally completely slipped.

If you were really from the UK, you would know that we do not produce bananas! It is too cold here.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Agriculture/Produce/Banana/Production

 

[really]

Whoaah. You have finally completely slipped.

If you were really from the UK, you would know that we do not produce bananas! It is too cold here.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Agriculture/Produce/Banana/Production

The wonders of the globalised economy.

Britain may not grow bananas but it does ripen them (in this case by an Irish company) - ample room for moving that to NI, or out of the UK entirely, depending on how and where the value and taxes are calculated.
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/local-news/go-behind-scenes-europes-biggest-3040658

 

[Arakhor]

Thank you for that totally unnecessary dig at me, Edward. Don't you have anything better to do?

 

[Takhisis]

I am pleased to advise you that I understand that they were mostly born in Northern Ireland.

From the mouth of a nativist Englander.

 

[EnglishEdward]

The wonders of the globalised economy.

Britain may not grow bananas but it does ripen them (in this case by an Irish company) - ample room for moving that to NI, or out of the UK entirely, depending on how and where the value and taxes are calculated.
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/local-news/go-behind-scenes-europes-biggest-3040658

Fascinating. However 60 million people can easily manage to eat 10 million bananas.

The UK is a net importer of most foods, and the fact that there are a few odd counter
current export deals here and there should not drive UK policy.

For instance, another example. I understand that much Scottish farmed salmon goes to the European
Union, but if the European Union declines to import that, we Brits will very happliy enjoy eating that.

 

[AdrienIer]

No. There will not be a "hey the europeans won't buy scottish fish let's buy tons of it to compensate" from the english. That's not how humans work. At best they'll buy 10% more than currently and scotts will be begging the rest of the world to buy the rest at half price (which will benefit the english, half price salmon is a good deal). So everyone wins except the scottish. History repeats itself.

 

[Takhisis]

That's not how humans work.

You're stating this to somebody who votes against immigration but then posts such a gem of hypocrisy as the one I quoted in #5197.