Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[Arakhor]

The story in the UK press is that they restart planning on common defence with a meeting the day after the UK referendum.

"The story". Seriously, Edward? Quite apart from the fact that "common defence" is an excellent idea in general, how on earth that does that snippet "prove" anything?

 

[Kyriakos]

"The story". Seriously, Edward? Quite apart from the fact that "common defence" is an excellent idea in general, how on earth that does that snippet "prove" anything?

Do you really think it is sensible to expect common Defense? Common Attack, maybe, at least for the warmonger countries. But if you believe other countries will come help in case of actual military threat...

 

[Arakhor]

Well, that is the basic concept of a defensive pact. Besides, most of the EU has signed up to NATO, which means we're already in an explicit defensive pact.

 

[Kyriakos]

Well, that is the basic concept of a defensive pact. Besides, most of the EU has signed up to NATO, which means we're already in an explicit defensive pact.

In practice it only holds if the enemy nation is not powerful enough. Eg, in a (hypothetical, not seeing it happening) Russia-Finland war, you can be sure there wouldn't be any greek forces helping Finland. Tbh i doubt there would be any other nations apart from some regional ones that care + Britain (or France) if it was deemed to their interest (which likely would not be).

Moreover keep in mind that most of the eastern euro nations have next to no military (iirc the baltic micronations have 2 tanks total). Part of why some countries in the EU are fine being vassals of Germany. Finland has an army, although obviously not of the kind to defend against a serious enemy.

 

[AdrienIer]

"There isn't enough solidarity in Europe so of course we shouldn't attempt anything strengthening European solidarity" First class reasoning

 

[Arakhor]

Moreover keep in mind that most of the eastern euro nations have next to no military (iirc the baltic micronations have 2 tanks total). Part of why some countries in the EU are fine being vassals of Germany.

I know you're Greek and all, but let's try to keep the conversation serious, shall we?

 

[Borachio]

Ooh, ooh, I was going to ask:

If the Leave campaign is so keen to get some of the UK's sovereignty back by leaving the EU, why don't they also recommend leaving NATO, the UN, the International Maritime organisation, and the ISO (amongst other supranational bodies)?

 

[Kyriakos]

I know you're Greek and all, but let's try to keep the conversation serious, shall we?

Hm, don't troll, mang.

 

[Arakhor]

Maybe you shouldn't talk about German vassal states then and people won't misunderstand you.

 

[Flying Pig]

Moderator Action: Arakhor, Kyriakos - that's enough of that

 

[Oruc]

So, even if you're right (and that's a very big if), are you even aware of the reputation of the Tories as the Nasty Party? Why should I vote to leave the EU based on a prediction that they will soon start savaging workers' rights from on high, when the alternative is that the Tories will be able to do that so much more quickly? (This goes double for Cameron being a fan of TTIP.)

The top Tories want to remain in the EU, David cameron and his heir apparent want to remain in the EU, are you just not paying attention or is it some sort of genetic disposition?

 

[Arakhor]

Personal attacks aside, what has that to do with the Conservatives frequently earning their moniker as the Nasty Party?

 

[Oruc]

Personal attacks aside, what has that to do with the Conservatives frequently earning their moniker as the Nasty Party?

You've been conned into being pro-eu because of the don't like the Tories but the tories are in favour of the EU. You should be experiencing cognitive dissonance right now.

 

[Arakhor]

No, I'm in favour of remaining in the EU for several reasons, only one of which is based on the Government not having sole control over what they consider to be universal human rights. Besides which, all major parties but one are broadly in favour of remaining in the EU (and I'm being generous to UKIP by referring to them as a major party).

 

[EnglishEdward]

"The story". Seriously, Edward? Quite apart from the fact that "common defence" is an excellent idea in general, how on earth that does that snippet "prove" anything?

Yes, seriously. Here is a electronic link:

https://www.politicshome.com/news/e...u-army-plan-delayed-till-day-after-referendum

I am sure you can find many more references.

I am merely correcting the impression given that it is "indefinitely" shelved.

Nothing wrong with concept of a European army for a European super state.
but that contradicts supposed Remainers claiming UK retain own military.

Point is that voting "remain" does not maintain status quo, it leads to federal EU.

 

[Agent327]

Once again, the EU already is federal: it's a federation of sovereign nations. And agreement on a European army couldn't even be resolved when the EC was only 6 - let alone when it's close to 30, as it is now. So, realistically, this is never going to happen. There isn't even agreement on a common foreign policy. Whenever a political crisis occurs, members' opinions go in all directions. Harmony isn't quite what first comes to mind.

Ooh, ooh, I was going to ask:

If the Leave campaign is so keen to get some of the UK's sovereignty back by leaving the EU, why don't they also recommend leaving NATO, the UN, the International Maritime organisation, and the ISO (amongst other supranational bodies)?

Because sovereignty isn't the issue. (If it were, the UK wouldn't be able to leave the EU in the first place. Seeing as they've 'lost' their sovereignty.)

 

[GoodSarmatian]

https://www.politicshome.com/news/e...u-army-plan-delayed-till-day-after-referendum

"It has been claimed". That's the ultmate in stock weasel phrases, just like "some say." The sentence is never wrong. I can say that "some say the Queen plans to arrest parliament and reign as an absolute monarch" and it would be true, because I said it.
One of the most reliable indicators that what you're reading is made up nonsense.

 

[Arakhor]

Point is that voting "remain" does not maintain status quo, it leads to federal EU.

The statement It has been claimed that voting "remain" does not maintain the status quo, but instead it leads to a federal EU is now true. That doesn't necessarily make the subject true though. Similarly, Vote Leave keeps on claiming that the UK gives £50m a day to the EU, but that has been refuted so many times that they're just straight-up lying now.

 

[Takhisis]

Well, the Leave campaign have made a lot of idiotic statements that border on xenophobia from the inside, but claiming that Cameron goes if the UK exits the EU is a not inconsiderably compelling argument.

 

[innonimatu]

You know, sometimes I wonder if I'm wrong, and if your arguments are more than incoherent ramblings, but then you come up with something that's just plain false like that and I just fall back on thinking that you make no sense.

FYI his current popularity is around 17%. 8 to 9 times what you said. It's dreadfully low but you're clearly altering facts to fit your own ideas. Reminds me of Fox News.

You caught me, it's hard following the news about the popularity of many presidents in the world. Mixed Hollande up with a slightly more corrupt and despicable one in Brazil. Don't worry though, Hollande is still a despised sitting duck, and following in the footsteps of that other one.

Ooh, ooh, I was going to ask:

If the Leave campaign is so keen to get some of the UK's sovereignty back by leaving the EU, why don't they also recommend leaving NATO, the UN, the International Maritime organization, and the ISO (amongst other supranational bodies)?

None of those infringe on sovereign prerogatives. None of those claim the right to pass laws that will apply to the UK whether or not its citizens approve of them, they are treaties regulating international (NATO, the UN) affairs, or offering standardization procedures free for the take on a case by case basis and just for those who wish them (ISO). And the UK must approve all changes to those international treaties.
The EU does claim the right to enact laws that apply to the UK whether its government, its parliament and its citizens wish it or not. And under EU rules the only "lawful" (again, they claim to the be the top interpreters of the law) way to actually refuse such laws is to leave the EU entirely This was the Rubicon the EU crossed years ago already. It was not the economic crisis and the infighting within Europe by some to take advantage of others that put me against the EU. That has been just a recent consequence of its architecture. It was the EU's attack on sovereignty, which is totally incompatible with national democratic systems of government. And cannot produce an EU democratic system to replace them with.