Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[Akka]

It is called not "Illuminai" but "Bureacrati". A lot of bureacrats in any country are election-independent. This is true for European Union's bureacrats as well.

These bureaucrat don't spawn into existence through satanist corporate rituals. They are nominated at their posts by elected officials. Also, they aren't the ones voting for European laws or signing treaty.
EVERY. SINGLE. EUROPEAN. DECISION. Is made by elected officials. I agree that the process might be improved (namely, by reducing the European Council power and giving more to the Parliament), but it's more to do with transparency and making people more visibly responsible, than actual real lack of democracy.

It WAS a vote about immigration. I don't think the average Leave voter gives a rat's behind about "overbearing EU regulations" that he doesn't even understand. Any poll will show it was by far the dominant factor for Leave voters, and that's why it was relentlessly exploited by Leave campaigners. Case in point:

Not very subtle.

Admitedly, immigration IS a very high-friction point in all the EU states, and it's something that has been left to the far-right long enough to make it a nearly untouchable subject, like a festering wound only growing worse with time.
Maybe this will finally force to take this problem head-on.

 

[Arakhor]

I've watched the remain side perpetually paint this as a vote against immigrants. I am not the least bit surprised to see that posturing backfire.

Vote Remain cast this as a vote against immigrants? You couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[Akka]

If UK doesn't get a better deal than Norway then leaving the EU really will have been utterly pointless. Now I'm not saying that Norway's deal is terribly terrible. Just not at all worth being on the outside of all legislation.

Of course it will be pointless. As it's been constantly repeated, most of what the people complain about EU, doesn't actually come from EU but from their own elected politicians, simply hiding behind the EU admitedly arcane mechanisms. Leaving the scarecrow behind won't fix the issues it was accused of...

No, but that was how it was sold to the UK electorate. And of course, those who at the time warned what the European "project" was about were dismissed as scaremongerers....

Then this electorate was a bunch of bloody ignorant idiots, because the EU (well, ECC) existed and was common knowledge at this point, and its founding principles weren't a secret. And if it's "scaremongering" to explain to people they'll join an entity that is about peace and co-prosperity and common governance, then it doesn't speak very well of their fears, and it's another proof they really weren't interested in the EU to begin with.

Vote Remain cast this as a vote against immigrants? You couldn't be further from the truth.

I think he just mistyped.

 

[Arakhor]

If UK doesn't get a better deal than Norway then leaving the EU really will have been utterly pointless. Now I'm not saying that Norway's deal is terribly terrible. Just not at all worth being on the outside of all legislation.

Absolutely. I'd like the magical land of milk and honey to materialise on cue, but I can't imagine it will. At this point, a Norwegian-style situation might even be our best option.

 

[Cheetah]

Now I'm not saying that Norway's deal is terribly terrible. Just not at all worth being on the outside of all legislation.

It's not terrible, just stupid. We're a paying member without voting rights in the Council or seats in the Parliament.

 

[luiz]

Admitedly, immigration IS a very high-friction point in all the EU states, and it's something that has been left to the far-right long enough to make it a nearly untouchable subject, like a festering wound only growing worse with time.
Maybe this will finally force to take this problem head-on.

I agree entirely, but leaving the EU won't solve any of the UK's issues with immigration. EU immigrants tend to be better educated and pay more taxes than the average Briton, which is a stark contrast to non-European immigrants. By leaving the EU the share of European immigrants will greatly fall, while not only the share but also the absolute number of non-EU ones will greatly increase.

And the best, if not only, way to deal with the mass immigration problem is from within the EU. Now that the UK will leave the block, for instance, France has no reason to continue holding the hordes of immigrants that want to cross the Channel and live in that blight which is the Jungle of Calais. The UK will have to deal with that now, so good luck to them.

 

[Lillefix]

It's not terrible, just stupid. We're a paying member without voting rights in the Council or seats in the Parliament.

I think we're paying less than what would as a member. So we traded voting rights for money. Not that anyone would ever admit it. It's all farcical.

 

[hoplitejoe]

UK INDEPENDENCE DAY!


Hang on, the UK is already independent... i got that wrong, let me try again.


SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE DAY!

 

[Kyriakos]

It WAS a vote about immigration. I don't think the average Leave voter gives a rat's behind about "overbearing EU regulations" that he doesn't even understand. Any poll will show it was by far the dominant factor for Leave voters, and that's why it was relentlessly exploited by Leave campaigners. Case in point:

Not very subtle.

Look at what all those immigrants morphed into...

 

[Manfred Belheim]

It WAS a vote about immigration. I don't think the average Leave voter gives a rat's behind about "overbearing EU regulations" that he doesn't even understand. Any poll will show it was by far the dominant factor for Leave voters, and that's why it was relentlessly exploited by Leave campaigners.

Well I voted leave and my decisions was nothing to do with immigration. Nor have most of the pro-leave people I've listened to even talked about it for the most part. What Nigel Farage did or didn't say is of no importance to me because he's irrelevant in the whole matter.

 

[Kyriakos]

So... Cameron out, Boris in? Scylla/Charybdis (by which i mean the Eu being the vortex Charybdis, and Boris being just another Scylla which will eat 6 of the crew but leave the rest largely intact)

 

[Kyriakos]

Also:

Caption reads: "How will you look in 5 years time?"

 

[EnglishEdward]

One of the things that disturbs me most about this forum is its dismissal of older voters - in the other EU thread there was even a comment about "can't wait for those old voters to die". The same comments were made after the Scottish referendum. Everyone's vote is equally valuable, just as everyone's priorities and circumstances are different. EDIT: Even as I was typing, someone else was calling for people they disagreed with to die so that they can get what they want. Seriously dude, you need to step back and listen to what you're saying.

Thank you.

It is ominous to wish to select the electorate to get the right result.
We had this in the 19th century when poor people did not have the vote.

The other way to look at it, is that those 50+ voters who are in favour of leaving are the very same voters who voted in the 70s to join the EU!!! They've had 40 years of the EU, and they've decided they don't like what its become. The comment I've heard again and again and again from my parents generation is along the lines of "it was supposed to be a loose economic and political union, not a pan-European superstate ruled by Germany and France". If that was what it still was, they would have voted remain (and so would I), but it isn't.

I am 60 years old, I voted to stay in the EEC in 1975, but leave in 2016
and Yes; this sums up my views very succinctly.

I remember what it was like before the UK joined the EEC, unlike younger
voters who have been in the EEC/EC/and/or EU all their lives.

And you know what? It was OK in the UK before we joined the EEC.

There was an awful lot of progress made in the period 1945 to 1972,
and there are at least a dozen aspects that I could quote where things
were very much better in the UK in 1972 than now.

But I can understand why younger voters are apprehensive about leaving.

Setting aside the almost Chicken Little says the sky will fall in style horror stories from
the Remain camp, which fortunately most saw through; the Leave camp failed to quote
examples of other countries e.g. New Zealand being successful outside large blocks.

And when older voters vote, we are not so much thinking of our own personal future
which is limited and not just in terms of life expectancy, but think of our children
and grandchildren's future rather than assume those in their 20s/30s are wise enough.

For the sake of the rest of Europe I hope that Brexit gives the EU the shock it needs to stop its relentless pursuit of "ever-closer-union" but given the comments that have already come out this morning it looks like the opposite is true

The matter is rather unpredictable, the future there is in chaos theory land now.
But chaos is necessary to break the stuck status quo. We live in interesting times.

 

[Bast]

UK INDEPENDENCE DAY!


Hang on, the UK is already independent... i got that wrong, let me try again.


SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE DAY!

#indyref2

 

[Arakhor]

And when older voters vote, we are not so much thinking of our own personal future which is limited and not just in terms of life expectancy, but think of our children and grandchildren's future rather than assume those in their 20s/30s are wise enough.

Well, that certainly makes it easy to justify, doesn't it? "Think of the children... because they can't be trusted to think for themselves."

 

[EnglishEdward]

Well, that certainly makes it easy to justify, doesn't it? "Think of the children... because they can't be trusted to think for themselves."

My children are eight (8) and ten (10) years old.

Would you give them the vote?

They'd likely vote for the party promising them
the most delicious chocolate or ice cream.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Well, that certainly makes it easy to justify, doesn't it? "Think of the children... because they can't be trusted to think for themselves."

You're assuming he feels the need to justify anything at all. I read it as correcting a naive statement.

 

[BvBPL]

Following the Infant Suffrage Act, the UK voted to join One Direction.

 

[red_elk]

Don't worry, EU, you can accept Ukraine instead. It's almost three times larger.

Looks like Putin's dream is coming true.

Weakening EU may benefit USA, but brings nothing particularly good to Russia. Not much bad either, except additional losses due to economic instability.
Putin's dream would come true if GB left NATO instead.

 

[Akka]

I am 60 years old, I voted to stay in the EEC in 1975, but leave in 2016
and Yes; this sums up my views very succinctly.

=>

Then this electorate was a bunch of bloody ignorant idiots, because the EU (well, ECC) existed and was common knowledge at this point, and its founding principles weren't a secret. And if it's "scaremongering" to explain to people they'll join an entity that is about peace and co-prosperity and common governance, then it doesn't speak very well of their fears, and it's another proof they really weren't interested in the EU to begin with.

EU today is in the line of what the EEC was at the time (less, actually, precisely due to a strong influence from newly-admited countries, and the UK especially, to stop the integration and just be content with a common market). Claiming it's not "what you voted for" only means you didn't even remotely pay attention to what it was about by then.