Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[Verbose]

It is not an either the UK sets immigration policy or the EU sets immigration policy.

They are both involved.

(a) The UK government set its open policy for immigrants
from outside the European Union;

(b) but this is significantly constrained by international human rights obligations
that the UK had entered into. Some of these are from:
(i) UN policy on refugees and some from
(ii) European Convention on Human Rights; and
(iii) judges interpretation of these.

(c) However for EU nationals the EU rules on freedom of movement apply.

(d) Unlike France and Germany the UK government chose not to temporarily limit
immigration from Poland when Poland joined. I understand that the French and
German governments restrictions have time expired; so this point is historic.

The current policy is therefore resultant from (a), (b) and (c).


What needs to be understood is that the wealthy elite and big business like
immigration, the UK governments do what the elite and business tell them to do.
The UK government has simply ignored what the UK public think and want.

It is not just the inconsistency between what the UK government claims it wants
and what it has lobbied for, but UK government is inconsistent with its voters.

It did this with respect to (a) facilitating large scale immigration from Poland
(b) joining the European Union (c) UK stance in EU on steel dumping by China.




Yes, for many pro Leave campaigners, and no doubt some Leave voters.
But immigration was not the main reason why people voted Leave.

I'm starting to doubt anyone on the continent much gives a damn why the British did it anymore, if it can actually be specified in retrospect...

 

[EnglishEdward]

So, purely anecdotal then, and one I could easily counter given that I know someone who claimed to vote specifically due to immigration issues.

And what about the other Leavers you know?

Yet you can't reference any?

I am not your unpaid researcher.

 

[EnglishEdward]

so the UK leaves the EU for independence and full control of it's future because its own government is undemocratic and doesn't listen to its voters

Not quite. The reasons appertaining to self government and national identity remain.
But the failure of people in authority to listen to the electorate is one of the reasons why most of the voters discounted them when they urged people to vote Remain.

seems a strange way to get control of its destiny back and doesn't achieve the desired results

It is only a first stage.

 

[Arakhor]

And what about the other Leavers you know?

I only know a handful, but I deliberately don't discuss politics with people whose company I enjoy.

I am not your unpaid researcher.

Then I will treat your claims with the disdain they deserve.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Then I will treat your claims with the disdain they deserve.

Given that Edward's statement was only a response to the incessant (and presumably equally unfounded?) claims that Leavers only voted Leave because of immigration, I find this to be a bit rich.

 

[EnglishEdward]

If the pro Remain faction claims the Leave voters were rasist and xenophobes voting
due to immigration issues, they should reference evidence in support of that.

But we are on page 167 of this thread, and I have not seen evidence to refute.

 

[Arakhor]

Those polls post the referendum that I have seen have been quite good at not including words like self determinism, democratic accountability, independence or national identity.

Funnily enough, if you mention a poll and then refuse to cite it when asked, one can only expect to be ignored.

 

[Old Hippy]

Not quite. The reasons appertaining to self government and national identity remain.
But the failure of people in authority to listen to the electorate is one of the reasons why most of the voters discounted them when they urged people to vote Remain.

good point but I'm still mystified why people keep putting people in government who don't listen to them and complain about the EU taking away their national identity and right to self government, and not let them govern.
after all they didn't elect UKIP last time around except in the EU parliament

It is only a first stage.

*Raise your first and shout "Viva La Revolucion!"*

 

[Takhisis]

You know a large proportion of prisoners in some UK jails are Romanian.

And there is a large proportion of Scots in jails north of the border. Which conclusively proves that Edward Longshanks was right.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Given that Edward's statement was only a response to the incessant (and presumably equally unfounded?) claims that Leavers only voted Leave because of immigration, I find this to be a bit rich.

GuardianUK says approx 1/3rd of the Leave votes was because of the immigration issue. If you think the entire EU "refugee crisis" which played out was a major issue over Brexit wasnt. Then I think thats a bit rich

Brexit is only way to control immigration, campaigners claim

Leading Brexit campaigners have tried to seize back the initiative in the referendum campaign with a warning that the UK faces a migration “free-for-all” unless it breaks aways from Brussels.

“The reality is that we have to accept people, even criminals. There are a number of cases of people who have got criminal records, then come over here and commit crimes, and we can’t even get rid of them without permission of the European court of justice.

The pressure on schools, hospitals, housing, caused in many areas by the numbers of migrants coming in from the EU is enormous.

“Most pressingly, if we remain, we will be further dragged into a migration crisis partly of Europe’s making,

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-way-to-control-immigration-campaigners-claim

 

[EnglishEdward]

GuardianUK says approx 1/3rd of the Leave votes was because of the immigration issue. If you think the entire EU "refugee crisis" which played out was a major issue over Brexit wasnt. Then I think thats a bit rich

The online Guardian article that you linked to was dated
25 April 216 that is two months before the vote.

And according to my arithmetic 100% - 1/3 of the Leave voting because of
immigration issues, makes 2/3 voting Leave not because of the immigration issue.

I'd want to how how many people were polled, how when polled (e.g after the vote),
distribution by age, region and sex and the list of permitted answers and numbers
including no comments and none of above before concluding voting due to immigration.

 

[FriendlyFire]

The online Guardian article that you linked to was dated
25 April 216 that is two months before the vote.

And according to my arithmetic 100% - 1/3 of the Leave voting because of
immigration issues, makes 2/3 voting Leave not because of the immigration issue.

I'd want to how how many people were polled, how when polled (e.g after the vote),
distribution by age, region and sex and the list of permitted answers and numbers
including no comments and none of above before concluding voting due to immigration.

According to my arithmetic Leavers would have lost if they actually told the truth about immigration. I dont understand why UK cant pass its own laws for dangerous criminals ? And why not follow EU regulations on energy efficency instead of removing taxes ?

Lord Ashcroft's mega-poll of 12,369 voters after the referendum suggested as such, finding that one third of Leave voters chose to back Brexit as they saw it "offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders." This was the second biggest motivation for Leave voters, just behind “the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK”.

Boris Johnson did as such back in March, warning that Mr Cameron's failure to get it under control was "deeply corrosive of public trust".

Brexiteers never said they would cut migration by a specific amount if Britain voted to leave, although they heavily implied as such.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/29/did-britain-really-vote-brexit-to-cut-immigration/

 

[Arakhor]

And according to my arithmetic 100% - 1/3 of the Leave voting because of immigration issues, makes 2/3 voting Leave not because of the immigration issue.

Has anyone in this thread actually said that the only reason to vote Leave was based on immigration? I wouldn't want you to think that actually backing up your claims was being forced to be an unpaid researcher or anything.

 

[EnglishEdward]

According to my arithmetic Leavers would have lost if they actually told the truth about immigration. I dont understand why UK cant pass its own laws for dangerous criminals ? And why not follow EU regulations on energy efficency instead of removing taxes ?

Thank you for confirming that the biggest issue for Leavers was not immigration, but

the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK

Not sure I understand your arithmetic.

First of all I am not convinced Leave campaign lied on immigration and if we accept
that poll's conclusion that 1/3 voted to leave primarily on immigration issues, it does
not follow that if they had not voted to Leave because of immigration concerns,
they would not have voted Leave because of other issues.

I could equally well argue that the half of the Remain vote fell for exaggerations
and clever misrepresentions by the Remain campaign.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Has anyone in this thread actually said that the only reason to vote Leave was based on immigration? I wouldn't want you to think that actually backing up your claims was being forced to be an unpaid researcher or anything.

Well now that downunder FriendlyFire has reminded me
how to spell Ashcroft. I have found an online link:

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

One can only hope that his poll explaining how people
voted was better than his polls predicting their vote.

 

[SMcM]

I imagine that a large proportion of prisoners in "some" UK gaols are any given demographic.

Well, whether we are talking about Romanians, Bulgarians, or whoever, it does not matter; this is EU immigration, which the UK government could not control with free-movement of people. One of the below is only showing as single jail, and the other four articles are not from entirely reliable sources (actually biased right-wing newspapers), but it gives a rough idea of the extent problems I am talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdSA8D9c4TU

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/659620/Britain-prison-huge-rise-EU-convicts-150million-taxpayer

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...in-three-Romanians-arrested-figures-show.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2963368/Romanians-EIGHT-times-likely-jailed-Britons.html

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/378232/Immigrant-crime-soars-with-foreign-prisoners-rising

 

[Traitorfish]

What are the figures when controlled for things like age, gender, income, etc.? Because, as a rule, single young men of low socioeconomic status are more likely to be involved in crime and particularly violent crime regardless of ethnic or national origin.

 

[Akka]

What is most ironic is that it is the EU's desire for expansion that has caused this reduction.

EU gains Poland, a net beneficiary
EU loses UK, a net contributor

I have nothing against the Polish people, but it was the introduction of Poland, resulting in mass immigration from Poland to the UK that the British government could not halt, that has pushed the UK out of the EU; it was this that was used as perhaps the most major point for the Brexit campaign- 'we want our borders back' type rhetoric. Without the 'now over a million polish immigrants' statistic, Brexit would have seemed to have had a lot ammunition.

The most ironice thing is, it's specifically the UK which pushed to expand the EU to Eastern Europe.

The hypocrisy never fails to give me a disgusted grin.

 

[Arakhor]

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

That's certainly an interesting group of statistics. Extrapolating from that, one can guess why a certain Tory minister was pleased that the council estates were voting in force.

 

[Gigaz]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/04/japan-brexit-demands-range-from-possible-to-fanciful

Japan is negiotiating on behalf of its companies for Brexit conditions under which those companies could further invest in Britain.

- Maintenance of the current tariff rates and customs clearance procedures
- Maintenance of the access to workers who are nationals of the UK or the EU
- Maintenance of the freedom of establishment and the provision of financial services, including the “single passport” system
- Maintenance of the freedom of cross-border investment and the provision of services as well as the free movement of capital, including that between associated companies
- Location within the UK of EU agencies such as the European Medicines Agency (EMA) and the maintenance of the UK’s access to the EU budget for research and development and participation in the Japan-EU joint research project
- Maintenance of basic policies regarding the entry of foreign capital and implementation of measures to promote investment
- Ensuring the consistency of regulations and standards between the UK and the EU

Other countries are expected to come up with similar lists outlining their economic interests that are at stake.