Is Elon Musk a fraud?

[EvaDK]

It'd be nice if we get back to discussing Musk
So let me help: he recently posted that his Tesla engineers should construct Tesla parts with accuracy of "10 microns", to avoid the parts looking unaligned.
10 microns= 1/100 of a millimeter, by the way.
He doesn't care that heat makes metal expand either, but such accuracy would already have been impossible for car parts.

The reason why Tesla cars became a meme and the butt of the joke regarding poorly aligned panels, is because Musk and the executives rushed the assembly proces to the point where quality control wasn't properly carried out to save time. They had to meet stipulated production numbers to trigger huge bonus payouts. The idea was that unhappy costumers would then be offered to get the panels properly aligned at a dealership after the purchase.

The issue was never that Tesla parts weren't accurately enough manufactured; the issue was assembly and quality control and it was entirely avoidable, had Musk prioritized quality over quantity (and his bonus).

This business practice is imo comparable to game developers releasing games, while they are clearly still in development - probably also because the people making decisions have deadlines to meet to trigger bonuses. 'We'll just patch it later'...

 

[Zardnaar]

And GenZ did not? It inherited even more ...
Still it is unhappy and frustrated and sees just problems instead of opportunities.

I am absolutley aware of what my parents and grand parents had done for me and I am grateful.
Thus I feel the obligation to make the best use of it and make them proud by achieving what they hoped I would.

Even the idea of blaming the generations before me for my problems seems perverted to me.
It would not only be unjust ... it would be ungrateful and dishonest - I would be ashamed of myself.

How so? Never in history did children have easier access to knowledge and education.
Never in history have there been more oppoprtunities and less competition on the job market.

No idea why the young generation believes it is being oppressed and treated unfairly ... it is non-sense and absolutely twists all facts.
It is just a fake atmoshpere of fear, jealousy and hate created by social media so people are more unhappy and thus better consumers.

But yeah, it is much easier to blame the generations before you for being unhappy or for a lack of purpse and passion in life.
Because otherwise it might be necessary to consider what you yourself might have to change in your life ...

The schools were in good condition in America in the USA here smaller class sizes.

Boomers got it easy mode growing, better work conditions, cheaper housing etc.

Alot easier to create wealth hel even start a family young.

Enough of them voted for deregulation and tax cuts wages have essentially stagnated last 40 years.

Oldest boomers were born into a world where wages doubled in 6 years and 20% pay rises happened. Post war housing boom wages were comparatively higher housing was 1/3rd or 1/4th the price in real terms.

 

[Hygro]

Splendid, then you agree you intended to insinuate that people who have what you regard as an unfairly negative opinion of Elon Musk are "blinded by jealousy and anger"?



I think the phrase there is pretty important to your overall point because it shows that your show of unbiased reasonableness is just that: a show.

Now, to the topic:
Elon Musk is a fraud because he is not a particularly technically gifted person, in fact I would go so far as to say he is an incompetent engineer. As a manager of businesses, it is well-documented that Tesla and SpaceX have to devote significant institutional resources to managing Elon Musk so he doesn't fudge things up, so I would say in that sense he is probably a negative value-add to his companies.

So his brand is built on basically these two things, that he's some sort of business genius and also a scientific/engineering genius, but he is neither. What he is is a man who parlayed a South African emerald mining fortune into a bigger Silicon Valley fortune while committing numerous white collar crimes in the process.

Funny how the meat of this post garnered no response.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Musk is also a disgusting bigot, estranged from his own child

 

[Takhisis]

Fraud - no ... he actually seems to stand to his word and take responsibility for his actions.

Is this like that bit when Elon Musk randomly decided he didn't want Ukraine to succeed in an offensive against Russia so he just decided to nix their telecomms and also to allow a lot of Putinian disinformation about it to be replicated on Twitter ‘because free speech’?

 

[Hygro]

If I was the attorney general of the USA I would go and see which crimes that was.

 

[Kaitzilla]

This has to be a bit

Talk radio has some unintentional gems sometimes.

Roughly paraphrasing:

Sanity is family, community, a well functioning local, state, and national government, with all the layers of relationships between them.

It is not something a person just carries around.

Something like that really makes me think.

Looking back, I was crazy on Monday.
Crazy on Tuesday too.
...I'm sane right now though... right?

 

[Kaitzilla]

Is this like that bit when Elon Musk randomly decided he didn't want Ukraine to succeed in an offensive against Russia so he just decided to nix their telecomms and also to allow a lot of Putinian disinformation about it to be replicated on Twitter ‘because free speech’?

It was free internet that SpaceX was paying for?


I think the Starlink service was turned off over Crimea well before the attempted offensive, but he just didn't tell Ukraine about it.

I don't think he was monitoring the attack and turned off the internet at the critical moment.

 

[aelf]

Is the boomer still here? No? Good.

Elon simps are hilarious.

 

[Hygro]

The fraud voters are being repeatedly validated and I am convinced he is highly fraudulent where before I wasn’t. I still hold out he was likely a real and valuable intelligence in the late 00s and early to mid 10s. But to quote Coolio, “but the ways things are going I don’t know… .”

 

[Kyriakos]

Elon now tries to argue that the failure of Twitter is due to Adl.

Reckless, as usual. I doubt many still think he isn't a fraud.

 

[Gorbles]

Surely just a coincidence he singled out ADL as well.

 

[Samson]

They are not the only ones he is suing. There is also California.

Elon Musk’s X sues California over new social media transparency laws

Elon Musk’s X sued California on Friday, challenging the constitutionality of a state law establishing new transparency requirements for social media companies, including how they police disinformation, hate speech and extremism.

X, the social media platform once called Twitter, said the law, known as Assembly Bill 587, violates its free speech rights under the US constitution’s first amendment and California’s state constitution.

In a complaint filed in federal court in Sacramento, California, X said the law’s “true intent” was to pressure social media companies into eliminating content the state found objectionable.

By doing so, California is forcing companies to adopt the state’s views on politically charged issues, “a form of compelled speech in and of itself”, X said.

 

[RobAnybody]

Is the boomer still here? No? Good.

Elon simps are hilarious.

This is an odd POV to me. I've just been reading along, getting caught up on threads, & @raystuttgart said many times he didn't like Elon: said that he is a narcissist, kinda a scumbag; that he's deluded, arrogant, born rich, eccentric... basically a whole lot of negatives (I'm sure I missed some). He just disputed "fraud" also being included in that list.

One can dislike Elon Musk (I know I do), but not agree with assigning every negative label under the sun to him. Like, as an example, he's not a pickpocket (just picked something random). We can agree on that I hope? He's not a pickpocket?

He's still a pretty poop human being, but someone saying "he's totally poop, I don't like him, but well... I disagree that he's also a pickpocket" should not be considered a hot take, & wouldn't make someone an Elon simp for simply disputing that particular, specific charge. Same with someone simply disputing adding "fraud" to the list IMO.

 

[aelf]

This is an odd POV to me. I've just been reading along, getting caught up on threads, & @raystuttgart said many times he didn't like Elon: said that he is a narcissist, kinda a scumbag; that he's deluded, arrogant, born rich, eccentric... basically a whole lot of negatives (I'm sure I missed some). He just disputed "fraud" also being included in that list.

One can dislike Elon Musk (I know I do), but not agree with assigning every negative label under the sun to him. Like, as an example, he's not a pickpocket (just picked something random). We can agree on that I hope? He's not a pickpocket?

He's still a pretty poop human being, but someone saying "he's totally poop, I don't like him, but well... I disagree that he's also a pickpocket" should not be considered a hot take, & wouldn't make someone an Elon simp for simply disputing that particular, specific charge. Same with someone simply disputing adding "fraud" to the list IMO.

I'm guessing the boomer thing triggered you.

I don't claim to know if he's an Elon simp. Maybe his opinions are genuine. Maybe it's just muddying the waters. Surely not the first time someone has argued in bad faith on OT. There are Elon simps in this thread, though. And Elon simps in general are hilarious. Hmm... maybe that's what struck a chord with you.

Moderator Action: Warned for trolling. The_J

 

[RobAnybody]

I'm guessing the boomer thing triggered you.

No, child, it didn't. I'm not a Boomer.

I don't claim to know if he's an Elon simp. Maybe his opinions are genuine. Maybe it's just muddying the waters. Surely not the first time someone has argued in bad faith on OT. There are Elon simps in this thread, though. And Elon simps in general are hilarious. Hmm... maybe that's what struck a chord with you.

No, child, that's not it either. One day you'll learn to read what people actually write I suppose, & respond to that. We all look forward to your maturation as a poster, & as a person! Here's a Participation Trophy for now though: Good try!
Moderator Action: Warned for trolling. The_J

 

[aelf]

No, child, it didn't. I'm not a Boomer.

No, child, that's not it either. One day you'll learn to read what people actually write I suppose, & respond to that. We all look forward to your maturation as a poster, & as a person! Here's a Participation Trophy for now though: Good try!
Moderator Action: Warned for trolling. The_J

Funny that you lived so long (long enough as a Gen X? It's always the Gen X folks in this type of situations), but you don't seem to understand the common concept that people may not mean what they say 100%. It's like you totally skipped or can't see the bad faith bit I talked about.

 

[raystuttgart]

... people may not mean what they say 100% ...

Does everybody have to be a zealous fanatic to share his opinion these days, so he actually means everything he says "100%" ... without allowing the slightest doubt?
Maybe he just has a gut feeling that something is not ok ... or that the line has been crossed ... and thus questions it. Maybe he is also not absolutely sure. Is he still allowed to speak?

It's always the Gen X folks in this type of situations ...

Yeah, because maybe they see things a little bit more relaxed as they are a less afraid that discussing different perspectives will open the doors to hell.
Maybe they still heard the stories of their grandparents about times of totalitarianism where freedom of speech was all gone and there was only one truth.

... the bad faith ...

Yeah sure, because everybody that does not support your own opinion acts necessarily in bad faith ... as your own side is always right and all others are always with the bad guys.
Maybe however both sides sometimes have valid points ... maybe both sides however sometimes overstep the border ... and maybe both sides should try to move a bit together again.

The truth is usually neither black nor white but somewhere in the middle. Humans make mistakes and get blinded by emotion easily ... but most are not evil.
Continously attacking the few people that still try to stay in the middle will just drive them to the edges. So why continue on this destructive path?

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If you want to interpret this post as "bad faith" ... so be it ... but it is more about being tired and sad about our discussion culture these days.
Not everybody that does not share your opinion is automatically your enemy ... as it is possible to disagree without anger and hate.

So whatever you feel you have to fight for ... it is not smart to push people to the other side ... just because their opinion is not convenient.
Because any overexagerated force will create a counter-force ... and sometimes relaxing and being a bit less aggressive works much better.

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Is the boomer still here? No? Good.

I do not care at all if you call me "boomer", as I do not see living an adult life, having built a career or simply being older as a bad thing.
What I care about though is being discredited, interpreted and "canceled" ... just on the base of sharing an opinion that differs from what you like to hear.

In Germany we have seen totalitarianism of both populist right wingers and also socialist left wingers ... neither of them was any good.
But as long as it is still allowed to speak and question things that may get out of hand there is a chance to prevent a worst case scenario.

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I don't claim to know if he's an Elon simp.

Maybe next time take the time to read what people say before trying to judge their intentions and personality ...
This could have given you a hint:

Elon Musk may be arrogant, narcistic, eccentric and generally strange but so are many other rich and successful people as well.

Musk may have many flaws like arrogance or being overly confident or even deluded sometimes ... but I do not consider him a treacher, a lier or a fraud.

Whatever I have read in your posts ... still I am not trying to judge your character or label you - so I would ask you to do the same.
As I think it is better to treat people respectfully and polite in public as anything else will just embarass yourself.

---------

Otherwise I feel I have wasted enough of my time with this thread, so please excuse my absense from now on - unless somebody feels like quoting or mentioning me again to get my attention.
But I do not feel the urge to vent any anger, frustration or hate towards Elon Musk ... also I feel I do not have to defend him ... I simply do not care enough and rather do more useful things.

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By the way:
Sorry for posting again in this thread ... as my post was mostly not related to Musk. Please go on with the original topic of the thread.
In case I hurt somebody`s feelings I also precautionarily try to excuse for being thoughtless ... have a nice evening.

@The_J
Sorry if this post might provoke further responses. I just reacted as my name was mentioned and I was quoted again.
And yes I see that this thread took a strange direction going a bit "off topic" ...

 

[aelf]

Does everybody have to be a zealous fanatic to share his opinion these days, so he actually means everything he says "100%" ... without allowing the slightest doubt?
Maybe he just has a gut feeling that something is not ok ... or that the line has been crossed ... and thus questions it. Maybe he is also not absolutely sure. Is he still allowed to speak?

Yeah, because maybe they see things a little bit more relaxed as they are a less afraid that discussing different perspectives will open the doors to hell.
Maybe they still heard the stories of their grandparents about times of totalitarianism where freedom of speech was all gone and there was only one truth.

Yeah sure, because everybody that does not support your own opinion acts necessarily in bad faith ... as your own side is always right and all others are always with the bad guys.
Maybe however both sides sometimes have valid points ... maybe both sides however sometimes overstep the border ... and maybe both sides should try to move a bit together again.

The truth is usually neither black nor white but somewhere in the middle. Humans make mistakes and get blinded by emotion easily ... but most are not evil.
Continously attacking the few people that still try to stay in the middle will just drive them to the edges. So why continue on this destructive path?

----------

If you want to interpret this post as "bad faith" ... so be it ... but it is more about being tired and sad about our discussion culture these days.
Not everybody that does not share your opinion is automatically your enemy ... as it is possible to disagree without anger and hate.

So whatever you feel you have to fight for ... it is not smart to push people to the other side ... just because their opinion is not convenient.
Because any overexagerated force will create a counter-force ... and sometimes relaxing and being a bit less aggressive works much better.

----------


I do not care at all if you call me "boomer", as I do not see living an adult life, having built a career or simply being older as a bad thing.
What I care about though is being discredited, interpreted and "canceled" ... just on the base of sharing an opinion that differs from what you like to hear.

In Germany we have seen totalitarianism of both populist right wingers and also socialist left wingers ... neither of them was any good.
But as long as it is still allowed to speak and question things that may get out of hand there is a chance to prevent a worst case scenario.

----------


Maybe next time take the time to read what people say before trying to judge their intentions and personality ...
This could have given you a hint:



Whatever I have read in your posts ... still I am not trying to judge your character or label you - so I would ask you to do the same.
As I think it is better to treat people respectfully and polite in public as anything else will just embarass yourself.

---------

Otherwise I feel I have wasted enough of my time with this thread, so please excuse my absense from now on - unless somebody feels like quoting or mentioning me again to get my attention.
But I do not feel the urge to vent any anger, frustration or hate towards Elon Musk ... also I feel I do not have to defend him ... I simply do not care enough and rather do more useful things.

---------

By the way:
Sorry for posting again in this thread ... as my post was mostly not related to Musk. Please go on with the original topic of the thread.
In case I hurt somebody`s feelings I also precautionarily try to excuse for being thoughtless ... have a nice evening.

@The_J
Sorry if this post might provoke further responses. I just reacted as my name was mentioned and I was quoted again.
And yes I see that this thread took a strange direction going a bit "off topic" ...

You're getting the opposite of what I was saying. Talk about reading! I said you might not mean what you said 100%. Because rather than pure semantics, meaning is also obtained from context. This is a very well known idea. It's basically why people can claim to be "just asking questions" and get a poor reception. A lot of people don't argue or ask in good faith.

Speaking of doubt, your credibility as a neutral/middleground commenter here is, in fact, in doubt. Such neutral commenters with no love for Elon would quickly end it off by agreeing to disagree on the definition of fraud. Especially when the history of the man puts him as at best a borderline case, with his schemes to pump up the value of his companies by making exaggerated claims while repeatedly proving himself inept at actually managing his companies. You probably know this. So why would you go on and on insisting Elon is not a fraud? Why so invested?

There's a likely reason. You may very well believe Elon is a crappy person. But we've seen examples of people who think that a famous person is bad but still like or respect them. Trump or even many celebrities' fans come to mind. These people still respect those bad people because the latter have some ability or good points that they admire. Elon is often held as some kind of genius entrepreneur. Heck, you don't even have to believe he's a genius. He's considered a titan of industry, if for no reason other than his wealth or influence. But if he's a fraud, then there is almost no reason left to respect him. And people hate being told the thing or the person they like sucks. They can acknowledge their flaws, but if they're told that what they like and respect has basically no value, they get angry. That's the motivator for someone to stick with a debate for a so long despite acknowledging the glaring flaws in the thing they're defending. It's human pyschology and tribalism at work.

Of course, next, you're going to tell me that I'm wrong about this. It's part of the defense mechanism. But, hey, if I'm not right then you're basically arguing for no reason at all. Not even for the sake of someone you like and respect. That's even sadder than being an Elon simp and shifts the issue from common human psychology in general to one of character. Yuck.

 

[raystuttgart]

But, hey, if I'm not right then you're basically arguing for no reason at all.

See, and here you do not understand again my point ... because you assume I am "arguing" ... in terms of being emotionally invested in "good vs evil" or chosing sides ... which I am not.

You may very well believe Elon is a crappy person. ... Heck, you don't even have to believe he's a genius.

What I said is that he got his flaws ... which most people do. I neither consider him a "crappy person" nor a "genius entrepreneur" ... I truly hardly care ... I just refuse to think only "black and white".

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Why so invested?

The big misunderstanding is that you think I am actually invested in fighting somebody discussing in this thread or proving that I am right.
But as I tried to explain you I am not ... I am invested in how topics like this are discussed these days ... not who "wins".

So it is not the content of this topic that I am concerned about.
But what I am worried about is the discussion culture itself.

I have an issue with the good vs. evil discussion culture these days ... that almost takes fanatical dimensions ... aka. witch hunting ...
I have an issue with opinions and perspectives trying to calm down are being canceled because they dare to question if something went too far.
I have an issue that more and more people that are trying to find a common ground are labeled and discredited as morally evil.
I have an issue with "everybody that is not with me and questions my point of view is against me" thinking - and no "neutral stance" being allowed.
I have an issue with culture war or generation conflict ... as it tries to divide without reason what does not need to be divided.
I have an issue with people being so worried about "bad faith" or "hidden intentions" that they refuse to even consider what somebody says.
I have an issue with people telling me that getting informed and making up their own opinion by reading different souces is too inconvenient to do it.
I have an issue with people accusing the "bad guys" to use incorrect or immoral tactics but do not hestitate a second to use them themselves.
I have an issue that I see "the cause justifies all means" attitude getting more popular each day and social media getting more and more hostile.
I have an issue with people constantly blaming all others for all the things going wrong in their life but never question their own role in it.
....

E.g. stuff like this here is completely unnecessary:

Speaking of doubt, your credibility as a neutral/middleground commenter here is, in fact, in doubt.

What does my credibility matter to you? I cannot prove to you anything ... but I also should not have to.
Don`t you see that you are attacking people`s character instead of considering their arguments or simply accepting that they disagree with you?
Don`t you see that you are starting to get emotional and personal instead of having a mature and rational discussion - even considering that something may go wrong?

Because rather than pure semantics, meaning is also obtained from context.

Did you ever consider that my context may be totally different from yours?
So is your context now the one you start to derive the meaning you want to derive for yourself?
Not everybody is living in the same bubble ... the world is actually pretty big.

This is a very well known idea ... A lot of people don't argue or ask in good faith.

No, it is not. At least not all people constantly questions intentions and character of everybody they talk to.
Only some people got so scared or maybe so disappointed by the world that they see bad intentions and enemies everywhere.
In my world there is no reason to assume only the worst of everbody just on the base of sharing thoughts and opinions.

It's human pyschology and tribalism at work.

And here we fully agree for once.

I am just afraid that those tribes might become mindless mobs ... that may destroy all the good we still have and make things only worse.
And sometimes I feel that some others actually want that ... so the fire may purge the world of all evil ... whatever the cost may be.

Not even for the sake of someone you like and respect.

Oh I do argue for people I like and respect ... as I like the world I live in. I like my family, my job, my co-workers, my hobbies, my friends ...
So I most likely aruge for quite selfish reasons ... as I do not think everything we have today is bad and there is a lot of good that deserves to be preserved.

... and shifts the issue from common human psychology in general to one of character.

Oh boy and here it comes the "character discussion" again ... it would be funny if it was not so sad to see you discuss on that level again and again.
Everybody disagreeing with you is of bad character ... yeah I know ... you repeated that already a dozen times ... but repeating it more often will still not make it true.

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The main differences between you and me is most likely just the following:

I do not believe that all humans are to be distrusted or have evil intentions.
I do however accept that all of us have flaws and none of us are perfect.

I do believe that the society and the world we live in is generally good - although not perfect.
So things might be improved ... but it is not necessary to burn it all to ashes first in order for things to change.

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But with every post you write to me you just answer more or less like this:
"I do not trust you. I believe you are my enemy. You must be a bad person with a bad character because you disagree to what I say. Thus I do not want to listen to you anymore."

If this is how you approach all other people ... how do you actually want to change something or ever find a compromise that works?
Do you really think that thinking in such simple good vs. evil is the solution to the problems of the world?

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But if worrying about my character is more important to you than thinking about what I said ... or just going back to the original topic ... well ok.
It is definitely the more convenient and simpler way of seeing the things ... as it will allow you keep doing as you always did ... and continue the "righteous crusade".

Discredit all that have a different opinion ... definitely easier than convincing them.
And also a lot easier than finding a compromise ... because then you would not "win" ... which is probably most important.

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Thus please go on with the original topic of the thread if you still want to.
But stop acting as some kind of moral judge ... trying to decide for community who is credible and allowed to voice his opinion and who is not.
These tries to discredit, label and cancel an opinion by attacking somebody as a person are more than obvious ... and a bit embarassing honestly.