Is Elon Musk a fraud?

[Gorbles]

But stop acting as some kind of moral judge

lol:

I am just afraid that those tribes might become mindless mobs ... that may destroy all the good we still have and make things only worse.

Talk about judging folks, eh?

 

[raystuttgart]

Talk about judging folks, eh?

If you consider voicing worries about society as moral judging of people, well then yes.

But for me there is a difference between these two:

- juding the character of an individiual
- being concerned about society

The first one attacks somebody personally - which you might hardly know.
The second one questions behaviour of a group - that you may be part of yourself.

Or do you really think that community members should start to become toxic and attack other community members personally?
Is that the behaviour you want in a community or forum? Everybody just attacking and questioning each others character and morals?

Should we end up at a point where we even start insulting each other?
Would this make any arguments then more valid?

 

[Gorbles]

If you consider voicing worries about society as moral judging of people, well then yes.

But for me there is a difference between these two:

- juding the character of an individiual
- being concerned about society

The first one attacks somebody personally - which you might hardly know.
The second one questions behaviour of a group - that you may be part of yourself.

Or do you really think that community members should start become toxic and attack other community members personally?
Is that the behaviour you want in a community or forum? Everybody just attacking and questioning each others character?

I mean, there have been plenty of examples where you've attacked people on a similarly personal level, too, so I don't quite get what you're trying to prove.

You seem to want no response to your own proclamations as you proclaim them. It's not really how it works. People are going to draw their own conclusions, and accusing them of "witch hunts" endlessly isn't going to strengthen your position in the slightest.

 

[raystuttgart]

I mean, there have been plenty of examples where you've attacked people on a similarly personal level,

Show me one in this thread ... I discussed about development of society and discussion culture not character of single community members in this forum.

People are going to draw their own conclusions, ...

I hope they do ... because that is what they should.

... accusing them of "witch hunts" endlessly isn't going to strengthen your position ...

That is just my impression of many discussions I see ... maybe it is wrong ... maybe it is biased ... who knows.

You seem to want no response to your own proclamations ...

I have no problems beind responded to if it helps to clarify misunderstandings. Go ahead and ask.

It's not really how it works.

How what works? Discussion, smalltalk, ... ? It is all good as long as people still talk politely.

---------

I have no "position" I want to strengthen ... as this kind of sounds like "winning a battle" again.
If you think that I am wrong with what I say ... all good. I have nothing to lose if you disagree.

But maybe you just disagree with some of my points and agree with other points ... it is up to you.
Discussions are not necessarily about "who wins" ... but to exchange ideas and opinions.

I am not afraid of listening to other opinions ... sometimes you learn interesting things.
I also see no need to "cancel" people ... as changing opinions requires to discuss them.

So as long as everything is friendly and polite and no lies are told ... all opinions are just that.
But once people get personal or impolite or start to twist facts ... criticism should be allowed.

----------

I don't quite get what you're trying to prove.

Honestly ... nothing.
I just got annoyed by discrediting, moral judging, labeling, canceling ... I repeatedly faced in this thread.
Once I do not get mentioned or quoted there is nothing left to discuss in this thread for me.

 

[Gorbles]

Show me one in this thread ... I discussed about development of society and discussion culture not character of single community members in this forum.

As I'm on mobile, I'll start simple. Right here:

That is just my impression of many discussions I see

You can't separate the discussion from the posters. Just like when you called aelf out for referring to posters in the third person, it cuts both ways.

 

[raystuttgart]

Again, you are confusing statements about "group behaviour" with "statements about a specific person`s character" .
Even if you feel that they are the same ... but for me there is a huge difference ...

"Group Identity" is nothing I believe in honestly ... as there is also no such thing as "group responsibility" or "group character" or "group guilt" or ...
But most likely saying things like this will directly cause that I will be labeled as "far right" or whatever ... so I rather stop discussing on a philosophical level.

But not every German was a Nazi in German in 2nd World War ... even if Germany in the 2nd World War was controlled by Nazis.
So saying that Nazi-Germany commited horrible crimes is actually just honest truth ... but saying that every German was evil is not.

Also there were white slave owners in colonial times in America of course ... but not all whites living in America today are guilty of slavery or even descendants of slave owners.
Of course they are still white Americans ... but I do not believe that guilt is inherited over many centuries and generations ... especially since many whites immigrated only centuries later.

So when you go with this "group identity" thing ... then every critic you can ever make about a group will directly be an insult to somebody personally.
But how do you want to discuss philosophy, history and society rationally then without always directly getting all emotional and personal?

But let us not get too deep into such philosophical discussions ... because it would really go way too far off-topic.

-----

I did not come here to fight ... not even to stop the fight ... I just questioned the means that were used ... as I believe that the views of people are getting more and more polarized.
I do accept also that I have no means to stop the War in Ukraine ... still I am not happy that the World starts using "cluster munition" again ... which was banned for good reasons.

But for somebody who thinks that "cluster munition" is a necessary means and talking against them is against "the greater good" I will most likely be a bad person.
Just like some may believe that being against labeling Elon Musk as a fraud is against their own political interest and thus my character needs to be questioned.

In the end it all just comes down to what serves your own interest ... but that still does not make anybody good or evil ... just human.
So let us stop virtue shining and pretending that we act for the greater good.

-----

Summary:
Let us just stop this pointless discussions as I see that it is all just about "who is the bad guy" and "who won the argument".
Let us consider it a "draw" ... accept that we have different views of the world ... and go separate ways again ...
Or if you makes you feel better ... I even admit moral defeat ... as it was truly impolite to critizise discussion culture ...

 

[aelf]

"I really don't care. I have no investment in this."

"You're angry and emotional."

*Proceeds to write very long, multi-quote posts whining on the subject, other subjects and other people*

Classic.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Again, you are confusing statements about "group behaviour" with "statements about a specific person`s character" .
Even if you feel that they are the same ... but for me there is a huge difference ...

"Group Identity" is nothing I believe in honestly ... as there is also no such thing as "group responsibility" or "group character" or "group guilt" or ...
But most likely saying things like this will directly cause that I will be labeled as "far right" or whatever ... so I rather stop discussing on a philosophical level.

But not every German was a Nazi in German in 2nd World War ... even if Germany in the 2nd World War was controlled by Nazis.
So saying that Nazi-Germany commited horrible crimes is actually just honest truth ... but saying that every German was evil is not.

Also there were white slave owners in colonial times in America of course ... but not all Whites living in America today are guilty of slavery or even descendants of slave owners.
Maybe they are still Americans ... but I do not believe that guilt is inherited over many centuries and generations ... especially since many whites immigrated only centuries later.

So when you go with this "group identity" thing ... then every critic you can ever make about a group will directly be an insult to somebody personally.
But how do you want to discuss philosophy, history and society rationally then then without always directly getting all emotional and personal?

But let us not get too deep into such philosophical discussions ... because it would really go way too far off-topic.

-----

I did not come here to fight ... not even to stop the fight ... I just questioned the means that were used ... as I believe that the views of people are getting more and more polarized.
I do accept also that I have no means to stop the War in Ukraine ... still I am not happy that the World starts using "cluster munition" again ... which was banned for good reasons.

But for somebody who thinks that "cluster munition" is a necessary means and talking against them is against "the greater good" I will most likely be a bad person.
Just like some may believe that being against labeling Elon Musk as a fraud is against their own political interest and thus my character needs to be questioned.

In the end it all just comes down to what severs your own interest ... but that still does not make anybody good or evil ... just human.
So let us stop virtue shining and pretending that we act for the greater good.

-----

Summary:
Let us just stop this pointless discussions as I see that it is all just about "who is the bad guy" and "who won the argument".
Let us consider it a "draw" ... accept that we have different views of the world ... and go separate ways again ...
Or if you makes you feel better ... I even admit moral defeat ... as it was truly impolite to critizise discussion culture ...

Are you okay there buddy

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Honestly he is just the sort of rich do everything playboy that was popular in the 19th century. His whole game is that he has a lot of money, therefore people assume he must be smart and are willing to give him more money. And he patches any doubts about this using charisma and manipulation. But beyond that I think he is honestly just a spoiled rich kid with too much money and not enough stuff to do so he just invests in what ever new shiny attracts his attention. And he is probably more than a little narcissistic and enjoys basking in the attention he can get from his legion of fans who idolize him mostly because he does and lives the way we all would want to.

He kind of reminds me of McAfee in a lot of respects. Only he is not as cool.

 

[raystuttgart]

I really don't care.

I said I do not care that much about Elon Musk.
Never said I do not care about the way society acts ... in fact I do.

... to write very long ... whining on the subject ...

Well I tried to prevent to be "canceled" and "labeled" ... and tried to explain the problem with that.
I was critizising behaviour of taking a discussion to a personal level as I consider it impolite and misguided.

"You're angry and emotional."

Well maybe you are not ... but you definitely got personal questioning my character and intentions.
Thus my impression was that you got emotional ... because why else should you get personal?

Classic.

Agreed, I saw a lot of very "classic" moves in this thread.
Sadly I saw them way too often the last years ...

-----------

Let us just agree we disagree ...

 

[Lexicus]

but I do not believe that guilt is inherited over many centuries and generations

But property derived from theft literally is inherited over many centuries and generations.

 

[sophie]

But property derived from theft literally is inherited over many centuries and generations.

Well that and the genocide and theft is still ongoing….

 

[aelf]

I said I do not care that much about Elon Musk.
Never said I do not care about the way society acts ... in fact I do.

Trying to make a discussion about the lone character of Elon Musk into a debate about neo-manichean social dynamics is basically grasping at straws. It's either very sus (as I speculate) or an egregious example of old man randomly yelling at clouds.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1701227156884382048

Dude's a bigoted piece of crap, as are his defenders

 

[EnglishEdward]

But property derived from theft literally is inherited over many centuries and generations.

Very few people in the UK have significant inherited property demonstrably derived from theft.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Very few people in the UK have significant inherited property demonstrably derived from theft.

Very few people have significant inherited property.

 

[EnglishEdward]

In the UK, far more people have significant inherited property than significant inherited property demonstrably derived from theft.

 

[raystuttgart]

Trying to make a discussion ...

Well, sometimes you reap the discussion you sow and not the one you would like to have.

It's either very sus (as I speculate) or ... old man randomly ...

Once you stop getting personal you may actually be able to focus on your actual topics.

-----

Why not just let our personal "You are a mean old person !" / "No I am not." simply end like this:

Let us just agree we disagree ...

Thanks for your understanding.

 

[aelf]

Well, sometimes you reap the discussion you sow and not the one you would like to have.

The complete lack of self-awareness here is mind-boggling.

 

[Kyriakos]

More vaporware.