1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Is Extreme Pacifism Unrealistic?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Gary Childress, Nov 15, 2013.

?

Is extreme pacifism unrealistic?

  1. Yes

    11 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. No

    7 vote(s)
    31.8%
  3. Undecided

    4 vote(s)
    18.2%
  1. ParkCungHee

    ParkCungHee Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2006
    Messages:
    12,921
    If we're going to use these instincts as justification are we going to apply it evenly?

    "Is refusing to commit genocide in the face of social pressure unrealistic?"

    "Is extreme refusal to rape unrealistic?"

    There you go. So far, nothing else on earth has induced world peace, so maybe we should build our efforts from the assumption that it won't happen.
     
  2. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2002
    Messages:
    22,459
    Location:
    Nicaragua
    Pacifism is of course the tool to build world peace. Violence begets violence. We literally learn to hurt each other by example first. Pacifism is the only system that doesn't spawn violence, so if we want world peace, aka nonviolence, then almost by definition we need pacifism to do that.
     
  3. Gary Childress

    Gary Childress Student for and of life

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    4,445
    Location:
    United Nations
    Arguments like what? Who or what specifically are you responding to? :confused:
     
  4. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2009
    Messages:
    9,429
    It is as long as you don't beat people with it. It is not as long as people feel the need to control other people.
     
  5. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2002
    Messages:
    22,459
    Location:
    Nicaragua
    How can you beat people with pacifism? Do you mean be victorious over them, or do you mean bludgeon them with your pacifism?
     
  6. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    31,802
    Location:
    Scotland
    Well, as you say in the OP, people often deride pacifism as "unrealistic". My contention is that when they say "unrealistic", they don't actually mean "unrealistic", aren't actually commenting on the plausibility of living as a pacifist, but merely telling us that they don't want to do it.
     
  7. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    9,492
    Gender:
    Male
    By not being a pacifist yourself?
     
  8. Gary Childress

    Gary Childress Student for and of life

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    4,445
    Location:
    United Nations
    Interesting. I think that does make a lot of sense. I would think that pacifism requires a certain amount of mental discipline, fortitude and restraint. It's not an easy position to take. Everything won't be rosy and wonderful all the time. Every now and again one must swallow some pride or sacrifice a little, give a little ground in order to deal with the inevitable "trespasses" against each other. It requires tolerance, compassion and understanding.
     
  9. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2009
    Messages:
    9,429
    A tool is an means to an end. Pacifism is a choice to be something, not a tool. It will not change the mind of those who wish to control people. Those who are in control cannot use pacifism to control those who are already pacifist. The end was there before the means.
     
  10. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2012
    Messages:
    26,698
    Seems to me, a lot of people confuse pacifism with not doing anything.
     
  11. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2002
    Messages:
    22,459
    Location:
    Nicaragua
    Ar har har you word ninja you.

    Pacifism is a lot of different things. But given your premise, you raise an interesting thought experiment. Perhaps this is why most pacifists don't believe in "controlling" people at all.

    Edit: but it's also important to note: Quakers and their more intense kin, Shakers and the Amish, are all pacifist and can form very conservative cultures. They use other methods of social regulation. There is shunning, which is super powerful and very toxic to the recipient, there is shaming (not sure these cultures use direct shaming), there's reasoning, there's indoctrinating, there's all kinds of ways we can apply emotional pressure and threat of pain and physical suffering is not our strongest tool for most situations.
     
  12. Perfection

    Perfection The Great Head.

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    49,772
    Location:
    Salisbury Plain
    Yes because I define the point where pacifism becomes extreme at the point where it's unrealistic.
     
  13. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2009
    Messages:
    9,429
    Are we now entering anarchist territory? That is why pacifism is not a good "control" tool. Pacifism basically deals with not being aggressive or fighting for an ideology. One can still be a pacifist and controlling in other passive forms. Although, there are very few passive forms that are not aggtessive in the long run. Perhaps pacifism is the refusal to fight for another ideology that is not your own? That would seem to be a specific way to use it as a tool.
     
  14. ParkCungHee

    ParkCungHee Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2006
    Messages:
    12,921
    What's your definition for unrealistic?
     
  15. Perfection

    Perfection The Great Head.

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    49,772
    Location:
    Salisbury Plain
    The point where it stops being realistic and starts being extreme.
     
  16. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2009
    Messages:
    9,429
    Is that a perfect circle?
     
  17. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2012
    Messages:
    26,698
    What if pacifism is extremely realistic?

    After millenia of trying to settle conflict with violent means, isn't violence bankrupt as a policy?
     
  18. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2009
    Messages:
    9,429
    The point is conflict itself, which will never be bankrupt.
     
  19. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2002
    Messages:
    22,459
    Location:
    Nicaragua
    Pacifism is surprisingly self regulating. That's why I either earlier in the thread wrote or meant to write that pacifism is internally very stable and realistic, it just runs into problems when it has to deal with external differences.

    See, violent systems need to use control to maintain their violence. But I don't get what your interest is in with control in a system. Are you merely stating pacifism has fewer control mechanisms, or are you saying that control mechanisms are needed to maintain a system? Because the latter I find unconvincing. The former is true. I think "control" per se is a particularly unstable method of social regulation.
     
  20. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2009
    Messages:
    9,429
    I have been arguing that pacifism is not a tool neither a way to control anything. I have no interest in even trying to figure out the control or lack thereof within pacifism. (that would be a totally different topic) Pacifism cannot fail on it's own merit. It only fails if some one decides not to be a pacifist. If humans want world peace they will stop fighting. If an individual wants world peace, they will be a pacifist.

    Killing pacifist will not kill world peace, and pacifism will never be extreme. Blaming pacifist for not morally standing up and fighting for their pacifistic ideology is looking at pacifist the wrong way. Any one who decides to stay out of conflict is one more person who ends conflict.

    One who decides to stand up against moral injustice and causes a conflict is not wrong in doing so, but neither are they a pacifist. A pacifist is one who speaks out but without inflicting conflict. There is a difference. And if they are martyred in the process, that is not the end of peace, but a stepping stone for a more determined group of pacifist.
     

Share This Page