Is Langton's Ant deterministic? Does Langton's Ant have free will?

[Kyriakos]

Self-consciousness is slow and ineffective when stuff gets real. Lions in bushes prove as much. 'You' are always reacting to your environment. Always. Self-awareness is like a pretty GUI to shield the casuals from the black and white command-line horror that actually goes underneath in the OS. It is all numbers when you boil down to it (even if you try to reach for quantum randomness) and any pretension of freedom becomes laughable. It's a romantic view of the world though so people cling on to it. Like guns and religions. Thanks Obama.

Anything which is not one with you individually (eg anything external, ie your environment) is not sensed 'as it is' but translated as a mental formation you have. So essentially you still react to your own mental goings-on. (of course this is about what you sense or identify from external stuff, it is not to negate that external stuff affect you, given that it is obvious they do, just not without your mental world translating them first).

True even in the somatic-mental examination of a human, for example: if we are near a nuclear leak we likely won't be feeling that good in a few seconds. However if our bodies were very different maybe we would not even sense anything negative there; we might even be feeding on nuclear waste

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Determinism doesn't make the past the "master", and the present and future its "slaves". Instead, it inter-relates all times equally.

Maybe. But that is irrelevant to our discussion as long as any action of us does entirely depend on external factors of whatever kind. And what you just said does not change that. As I tried to explain to timtofly - determinism, is very far apart from the idea of free will. (Physical) causation is what counts.

This passage seems to contradict itself. First it says awareness is a side-effect. But then it says that awareness shapes the physical processes of the body.

Nonsense. Sorry, but it is.
I most certainly never said such a thing.
What I did describe was a ONE-SIDED relationship. What I did describe was how the physical process effects the metaphysical noise it creates and nothing more.

My view is the latter: awareness is a main effect, which has enormous influence on further events. And in fact, that's crucial to why awareness was selected-for in evolution.

Ah.... but how is this possible? And what is the physical basis of that assumption? Zero, in both cases. Which is why I will not pay any further credence to it. But it is nice to finally see exactly the mythical myths I assumed at the bottom of the notion of "free will" all along, also in your case.

Now, if we had some reason to believe a principle stating "free agents cannot evolve solely from unfree processes," you would have a criticism of my view. But we have no reason to believe that.

You just don't get it. But it is difficult to get, I have learned that much by now and I think I did also an insufficient job in explaining it. Let me try again.

Are you going to tell me that I don't really make decisions because the decisions are based on preferences??

No.
No, not at all.

The reasoning you just referred to would merely assume that because what you are is created on account of factors you have no reign over... - that this would mean that whatever you did were hence also not free. Because what you are in the first place was in the first place not free.

I think that is compelling reasoning. However, it does only establish that what you are is predetermined. It does not rule out that the decision this 'you' makes are unfree.
To realize that the decisions you make are just as much subject to external factors as what you are requires further reasoning. Reasoning I had hoped I already had made - but you apparently did not get. So I'll try to make it more clear, now.

So we seem to agree on that absolutely unfree physical processes give rise to what we call awareness. This establishes what I already just referred to - that the 'you' is based on factors the 'you' has no control over whatsoever.
So okay, you were just thrown into this universe. And you had no say whatsoever regarding what it is you are. But - there you are. You exist. And now that you do - you will make decisions. And you will do so based on your free will.

WRONG. The external factors which created the 'you' to begin with DID NOT CEASE to function on account of the inception of your existence. Instead - those factors continue to predetermine every move you make. Every move. Every. Move. Every electric charge. Every synopses doing whatever. Every glance doing whatever. Everything.

This process creates metaphysical noise. It creates awareness. And by that - it creates a mind which is experiencing the phenomena of making decisions. However - every minute step of that decision-making-process is per-determined by the process of its physical foundation. This noise. This awareness. This decision-making.process. It experiences choice. It experiences options. It experiences will. And it even experiences freedom of will, alright. But none of that experience is backed up by the actual process of it which CONTROLLS it. It.is.just.noise.
What you call 'freedom' is just a sensation, as much as any other thing you experience.

And what is left is that ability of the physically process - which gave rise to our awareness AND which is processing and continuing and realizing our awareness - to be designed to fulfill the desires of the noise created by it in a away unknown by other aware creatures as dogs or monkey or pigeons.

That is literally all you got. And you call that 'freedom of will'. Because you have a strong desire for this concept. And that is the only reason you even invoke it.
And that is it.

And to return to my last reply - as much as you have the delusion of a free will You have the delusion of a duality between the 'you' and the decisions the 'you' makes. It all is just an elaborate fiction. A flow of pictures luring you. A flow of impressions. A flow of consciousness.

But that revaluation clashes so hard with how we are programmed to experience this consciousness that people will repulse it. As you do. And the ironic thing is that you think that this repulsion is evidence for why you are free (because you can reason and stuff). While it is part of why you are pre-determined. While all your reasoning is fed by pre-determined ideas. So is mine! But I am happening to be right. Just by chance. Or I am wrong. But that would require yout to be pre-determined to provide the argument to convince me. And I am pre-determinded to find that extremely unlike. And luckily (a luck you like to call 'freedom of will') - our pre-determination CAN contain a great deal of good reasoning. Which I'll claim.

 

[Ayatollah So]

What I did describe was a ONE-SIDED relationship. What I did describe was how the physical process effects the metaphysical noise it creates and nothing more.

I don't understand this "metaphysical noise" term. But "one-sided" sounds pretty clear ... are you trying to say that awareness is separate from physical events in the brain (dualism), and is caused by them but does not cause anything else (epiphenomenalism)?

In that case, where's the evidence? But if that's not what you mean, what do you mean?

Ah.... but how is this possible? And what is the physical basis of that assumption?

I'm a physicalist; I think minds just are brain-activity. What is the physical basis for assuming that awareness drives behavior? Well, see, evolution has selected for larger and larger brain:body ratios. And birds and mammals, especially, show a lot of awareness of their environment. And they use that awareness to execute some very flexible behavior, that helps them survive and reproduce.

Where's the mystery? The only mystery I see is why you think that's mysterious.

So okay, you were just thrown into this universe. And you had no say whatsoever regarding what it is you are. But - there you are. You exist. And now that you do - you will make decisions. And you will do so based on your free will.

Yup, like that.

WRONG. The external factors which created the 'you' to begin with DID NOT CEASE to function on account of the inception of your existence. Instead - those factors continue to predetermine every move you make.

External factors do continue to function. They do NOT determine every move you make. That would result in a very stupid and inert organism. Internal factors are there for a reason. They contribute to behavior. In intelligent animals, they contribute more and more as the animal matures, and the behavior of the animal no longer responds only to its immediate environment. It responds to internal factors - knowledge and preferences that have been learned. And in language-using animals, the adaptation and flexibility moves up a whole 'nother level.

But none of that experience is backed up by the actual process of it which CONTROLLS it. It.is.just.noise.

Wrong. Experience and consciousness does control decision and behavior. It is a large array of neural events, which cause other neural events, which cause muscles to move.

It all is just an elaborate fiction. A flow of pictures luring you. A flow of impressions. A flow of consciousness.

There is no Cartesian movie theater, no projector, no screen. There is only a living breathing thinking feeling organism.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

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[Terxpahseyton]

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