Is not wanting to date trans individuals transphobic?

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Saying you're not attacted to someone is cool and fine.

Saying you cannot be attracted to a group of people because you believe them to be inauthentic members of their gender is kinda not.

Begrudged tolerance is better than nothing I guess but still somewhat undermining.
 
Change a few words, ignore the last two sentences and this reads like something a bigot would write in a plea against homosexuality. :eek:

"If I change your words and then take them out of context they might look bad!"

:rolleyes:


I believe the age-example I made earlier does not fall into that category. If you're dating a person, you think they're 25, and they look like they're 25, but they're actually 35 (or the other way around), that will impact your attraction towards that person, and there's nothing you, or that person, can really do about it.

I don't really get the point. That you found a parallel that could fit doesn't mean anything on its own. I could think of some rational reasons for this, but if someone is just tied up in a number to the point it affects their perception of attractiveness, it might be harmless but probably doesn't speak highly to that person's character.

Yes. Hence the relevance of the "finding out out she's your sister" example. Which also doesn't imply that you support the removal of rights and murder of your siblings. The whole point of that example isn't to deflect of avoid anything, it's to ask you why you don't apply the same standards in that situation.

How the hell did you get from "that's transphobic" to "you support the murder of trans people?" The fact that transphobia manifests in social ills for trans people doesn't mean that every person with transphobic feelings or tendencies supports the murder of trans people. That's rather the whole point of these discussions. If people face their irrational attitudes towards trans people, it becomes less pervasive. It helps destigmatize trans people, making society more tolerant as a whole.

It's all about awareness. That's all. Being transphobic doesn't make one a bad person. Arguing that it's OK and harmless to be transphobic might not either, although it's not a great look, to say the least. If someone feels revulsion in their gut there may not be any way to change that, but one can feel that and also understand intellectually that it's completely irrational.

To me the fundamental question is this: Why do you think that a refusal to date a particular subset of humans, for whatever arbitrary and personal reason (up to and including revulsion), must necessarily have a significant [negative] bearing on how you treat that subset of humans in any other walk of life?

The whole point of these examples is to show that there are cases where this does not apply, and to demonstrate that stating this is a self-evident truth isn't enough and actually needs to be backed up. As far as I can see the only person who's attempted to do this is Meg with her recent survey, but even that puts the cart before the horse as has been explained.

I do believe that it is quite well documented that being broadly perceived as physically attractive gives one significant advantages in their interactions with other people. Conversely, obese people, disabled people, disfigured people all have to bear disparate treatment in society based on their physical appearance - which is undoubtedly related to their perceived level of attractiveness and suitability as a mate.

Do you really not believe that a person's physical attractiveness affects how they are treated? Because I'd have to take serious issue with the conclusion you're drawing here. I'm pretty sure people are offering those examples to try to explain away their feelings towards trans people as some harmless personal preference, and not making the extraordinary and to me, astoundingly naive logical leap that you're making.
 
And you are certainly free to do so. Not to keep throwing studies at you, but this study seems to suggest to me that even undergoing hormone therapy will raise the chance of suicide.

That's like saying people who take antipsychotics are more likely to commit suicide. Of course there's going to be some truth to this, because the people who get prescribed antipsychotics are people who are already much more likely to attempt suicide in the first place.

Can you also comment on body integrity identity disorder? Do you think they should get their limbs cut off by a doctor?

I believe you. I truly wish you the best.

It's an interesting question. There is often a neurological component to it -- that the disorder comes from how the brain is physically wired, instead of chemical disturbances. I don't know what BID is like to experience, but if it's like being trans, then I think after all other therapeutic options have been tried, it might be a valid treatment.
 
"If I change your words and then take them out of context they might look bad!"
Yeah, if the structure of the argument, and the thing you base your argument on are the same, then that absolutely says something about your argument. You're saying a person should not listen to their natural urges and instead do the mental gymnastics to become attracted to people they're simply not attracted to, that's 1:1 what these hateful people would preach.

I don't really get the point. That you found a parallel that could fit doesn't mean anything on its own. I could think of some rational reasons for this, but if someone is just tied up in a number to the point it affects their perception of attractiveness, I'd say that person is pretty shallow. Not exactly helping the case.
It's the same thing that you don't "get" about anybody who's arguing with you here. Who cares if i's shallow? It might even be, the point is, just because getting to know the age of the person has changed your perception of them as a dating/mating partner, does not mean that you now think of them as less of a person, or that a hatred of older people is the reason for why it has changed your perception of them as a dating/mating partner.

That's the conclusion you keep drawing only when it comes to not wanting to date trans individuals, and I don't think it's based on anything other than your personal view, that itself seems to be more of "feeling" that this is true rather than any sort of objective measurement.
 
Not wanting to date trans individuals for the reason that they are trans is strictly transphobic. You may feel this is a justifiable prohibition, but there is no other word to describe a person who avoids trans individuals because they are trans.

The question asked by this thread makes even less sense if one considers that dating is an extremely fluid concept. Let's say that you met this really nice girl. You hit it off, then you discover she has a penis. Now of course she is an invalid contender for your heart even if you got along really well. In my book, that is called denying yourself a potentially fulfilling experience based on prejudice. I wouldn't even waste time judging someone for being that ignorant because I'm too busy pitying them instead.
 
Yeah, if the structure of the argument, and the thing you base your argument on are the same, then that absolutely says something about your argument. You're saying a person should not listen to their natural urges and instead do the mental gymnastics to become attracted to people they're simply not attracted to, that's 1:1 what these hateful people would preach.

Nope. Try again, and this time respond with something that isn't an offensive strawman. The scenario involves already being attracted to the person. They don't have to actually do any mental gymnastics, the attraction already exists. Completely different from the box you're trying to put it in. Just, come on man.

It's the same thing that you don't "get" about anybody who's arguing with you here. Who cares if i's shallow? It might even be, the point is, just because getting to know the age of the person has changed your perception of them as a dating/mating partner, does not mean that you now think of them as less of a person, or that a hatred of older people is the reason for why it has changed your perception of them as a dating/mating partner.

That's the conclusion you keep drawing only when it comes to not wanting to date trans individuals, and I don't think it's based on anything other than your personal view, that itself seems to be more of "feeling" that this is true rather than any sort of objective measurement.

Except you're strawmanning AGAIN because I didn't say this, either. The conclusion I'm drawing is that it is entirely irrational to lose attraction for someone upon finding out they are trans, and that there is no legitimate reason for it beyond transphobia. If you want to argue that it's just as harmless as losing attraction for anyone over the age of 25, I guess that's an argument we could have, but that is still a total deflection from the issue.
 
How the hell did you get from "that's transphobic" to "you support the murder of trans people?". The fact that transphobia manifests in social ills for trans people doesn't mean that every person with transphobic feelings or tendencies supports the murder of trans people

It's part of the reasoning Meg has given a number of times. Not the direct correlation as you say, but that it is a contributing factor to such things happening. Which is kind of what you go on to say...

The fact that transphobia manifests in social ills for trans people doesn't mean that every person with transphobic feelings or tendencies supports the murder of trans people. That's rather the whole point of these discussions. If people face their irrational attitudes towards trans people, it becomes less pervasive. It helps destigmatize trans people, making society more tolerant as a whole.

Maybe you and I have a different understanding of the word "tolerant", but to me it doesn't encompass everything up to and including intimate romantic relationships. Supporting the full legal rights of transpeople, happily accepting their legal status as the gender they wish to be, supporting any surgeries or therapies that they feel they require, being willing to be friends with or employ them, etc etc etc, is as tolerant as I think I need to be. Certainly as tolerant as anyone can reasonably demand of me. And indeed some way beyond what the word "tolerant" actually means. If you're going to say that's not enough and demand control over my very thoughts and feelings, that's a step too far and a line needs to be drawn there.

It's all about awareness. That's all. Being transphobic doesn't make one a bad person. Arguing that it's OK and harmless to be transphobic might not either, although it's not a great look, to say the least. If someone feels revulsion in their gut there may not be any way to change that, but one can feel that and also understand intellectually that it's completely irrational.

Human beings not being rational. Who'd have thought it. What's rational about wanting to rub your genitals against someone else's to begin with? Yes ultimately its beneficial for the species, but the individual motivation is just "it's fun!". You can't get all Mr Spock about it.

I do believe that it is quite well documented that being broadly perceived as physically attractive gives one significant advantages in their interactions with other people. Conversely, obese people, disabled people, disfigured people all have to bear disparate treatment in society based on their physical appearance - which is undoubtedly related to their perceived level of attractiveness and suitability as a mate.

Do you really not believe that a person's physical attractiveness affects how they are treated? Because I'd have to take serious issue with the conclusion you're drawing here. I'm pretty sure people are offering those examples to try to explain away their feelings towards trans people as some harmless personal preference, and not making the extraordinary and to me, astoundingly naive logical leap that you're making.

The only conclusion I'm drawing is that you don't hold everyone who does not want to sleep with any of these groups directly accountable for any and all societal ills that befall them, or call them bigots. All you ask for is that they all be given adequate legal protections and then let everyone get on with it. And even if you think that the legal protections aren't currently adequate, you don't blame everyone who won't fornicate with them for this. Because that would be silly wouldn't it.
 
Nope. Try again, and this time respond with something that isn't an offensive strawman. The scenario involves already being attracted to the person. They don't have to actually do any mental gymnastics, the attraction already exists. Completely different from the box you're trying to put it in. Just, come on man.
No, the attraction obviously doesn't exist. Attraction may have existed at a time where you didn't have all the information, but at the time where you're telling people "Just ignore your natural urges be attracted!" it clearly does not exist.

Hell, let's say a gay person is attracted to what they think is a man. Then that person turns out to be a very masculine woman. That attraction that was there before is gone immediately. By the same logic that you're using, because there was attraction there before, the person could now leave their natural urges behind and come back to the moral side.

The major difference is that that person still has the body parts that you're not interested in, other than that, it's the exact same argument, the person who lost the attraction clearly does not see them as a valid partner anymore.

Except you're strawmanning AGAIN because I didn't say this, either. The conclusion I'm drawing is that it is entirely irrational to lose attraction for someone upon finding out they are trans, and that there is no legitimate reason for it beyond transphobia. If you want to argue that it's just as harmless as losing attraction for anyone over the age of 25, I guess that's an argument we could have, but that is still a total deflection from the issue.
What you're saying here is basically: "You're strawmanning me by saying that I argue that X and Y are true, also, here's why X and Y are true." oO

The only reason I can think of why you would reasonably say this is that you're working with some different definition of "transphobia" than everybody else here seems to be operating under - "an intense dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people".

Do you work under a different definition that includes actual fear/aversion to having sex with a person who has been born as the sex they're not attracted to, or what exactly is going on?
 
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Not wanting to date trans individuals for the reason that they are trans is strictly transphobic.

No it isn't. Check the dictionary.

You may feel this is a justifiable prohibition, but there is no other word to describe a person who avoids trans individuals because they are trans.

Er.... you seem to have missed the word "dating" out of that sentence. I'll be generous and assume that was an honest mistake and not a sleight of hand.

In my book, that is called denying yourself a potentially fulfilling experience

Well... full filling would definitely be one way of describing that experience ;)

(I know I know, but it's not an RD thread so sue me)
 
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Maybe you and I have a different understanding of the word "tolerant", but to me it doesn't encompass everything up to and including intimate romantic relationships. Supporting the full legal rights of transpeople, happily accepting their legal status as the gender they wish to be, supporting any surgeries or therapies that they feel they require, being willing to be friends with or employ them, etc etc etc, is as tolerant as I think I need to be. Certainly as tolerant as anyone can reasonably demand of me. And indeed some way beyond what the word "tolerant" actually means. If you're going to say that's not enough and demand control over my very thoughts and feelings, that's a step too far and a line needs to be drawn there.

Human beings not being rational. Who'd have thought it. What's rational about wanting to rub your genitals against someone else's to begin with? Yes ultimately its beneficial for the species, but the individual motivation is just "it's fun!". You can't get all Mr Spock about it.

The point isn't that everyone needs to be open to dating trans people in all circumstances. Or even that you (not you specifically) must stop feeling revulsion at the thought or you're a terrible person. But there is certainly utility in recognizing the fundamental irrationality in rejecting a trans person solely on account of them being trans.

It's messy. The transition from intolerance to tolerance is long. People don't just shed intolerance. Even willing people who vocally advocate on behalf of all LGBT people are squishy about it as it pertains to them personally. The point is, recognizing it as fundamentally irrational eliminates its power. That's all. People always presume that the goal is thought control, but it isn't that at all. You may not be able to control it, or even want to. But you do have control over how it manifests in your behavior. As with any problematic impulse, reaction, or emotion, control is the key.

Perhaps people arguing here have such control, I don't know, but I think it's pretty absurd to say "Just because I don't see trans people as attractive doesn't affect my treatment of them!" That is certainly true for plenty of individuals, I'm sure, but society has always functioned to treat people differently based on perceived physical attractiveness, and that is in no way limited to trans people. That result necessarily is borne out of individual attitudes.

The only conclusion I'm drawing is that you don't hold everyone who does not want to sleep with any of these groups directly accountable for any and all societal ills that befall them, or call them bigots. All you ask for is that they all be given adequate legal protections and then let everyone get on with it. And even if you think that the legal protections aren't currently adequate, you don't blame everyone who won't fornicate with them for this. Because that would be silly wouldn't it.

Of course it would. But legal protections can only do so much. Awareness, discussions like this with people willing to honestly account for their feelings are important. Murdering a trans person is just as illegal as murdering anyone else, but that doesn't stop it from happening much more frequently. Surely you can see how a culture that marginalizes people - and make no mistake, people en masse deciding that a particular group is sexually undesirable serves to marginalize that group - puts them in greater danger of all kinds of terrible things happening to them. That's why it's important, not to make those feelings go away, but to make sure we speak up and that society accepts responsibility to protect the marginalized instead of just ignoring them.

People get very defensive when you say they are _____-phobic, and perhaps that's understandable. But that fact is far less important than what one does with that information.
 
If you're going to say that's not enough and demand control over my very thoughts and feelings, that's a step too far and a line needs to be drawn there.

You, yourself, are responsible for your thoughts and feelings. You can pontificate about tolerance all you want, but if in your thoughts and feelings you are not tolerant of people, you have nobody to blame for that but yourself. Hence, if in your thoughts and feelings, you find yourself saying "I would never date a transperson, because they are trans," and then acting in accordance with that, you are transphobic. If however you acknowledge that you have a stereotype in mind when you declare transpeople an unfit category for romantic association, then at least you are making an effort to respect other people, and that's all that anyone can ask of you.

This thread could do with a lot less making elaborate justifications for why it's OK to judge people based on their demographic.
 
No, the attraction obviously doesn't exist. Attraction may have existed at a time where you didn't have all the information, but at the time where you're telling people "Just ignore your natural urges be attracted!" it clearly does not exist.

Hell, let's say a gay person is attracted to what they think is a man. Then that person turns out to be a very masculine woman. That attraction that was there before is gone immediately. By the same logic that you're using, because there was attraction there before, the person could now leave their natural urges behind and come back to the moral side.

The major difference is that that person still has the body parts that you're not interested in, other than that, it's the exact same argument, the person who lost the attraction clearly does not see them as a valid partner anymore.

The major difference is lack of sexual compatibility. I don't know if you've ever been in a relationship or had sex, but yeah, this is a MAJOR difference :lol:

Your whole point is strawmanning, obviously, because I never once said people need to get over their lack of attraction. So, just can this garbage.

What you're saying here is basically: "You're strawmanning me by saying that I argue that X and Y are true, also, here's why X and Y are true." oO

The only reason I can think of why you would reasonably say this is that you're working with some different definition of "transphobia" than everybody else here seems to be operating under - "an intense dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people".

Do you work under a different definition that includes actual fear/aversion to having sex with a person who has been born as the sex they're not attracted to, or what exactly is going on?

How, exactly, is it not prejudiced to say, "I'd never date a trans person, on account of them being trans?"

You don't appear to understand how physical attraction or relationships actually function, so I think I'll just leave it here.
 
It's messy. The transition from intolerance to tolerance is long. People don't just shed intolerance. Even willing people who vocally advocate on behalf of all LGBT people are squishy about it as it pertains to them personally. The point is, recognizing it as fundamentally irrational eliminates its power. That's all. People always presume that the goal is thought control, but it isn't that at all. You may not be able to control it, or even want to. But you do have control over how it manifests in your behavior. As with any problematic impulse, reaction, or emotion, control is the key.
But that, too, is not self-evident.

It might be just fine that a partner who "has a past of living as the gender that they're not attracted to" is a deal breaker for some people, just like any other characteristic might be a deal breaker for people.

You're again phrasing this as sign of prejudice that should be fought against, when you have not demonstrated in any way that it is.
 
It is computerphobic to not accept that a computer passing as if it was a human is actually not a human.

Yet the human-centric attitude around makes it less of an issue, so we are stuck to debating baby steps.
 
The major difference is lack of sexual compatibility. I don't know if you've ever been in a relationship or had sex, but yeah, this is a MAJOR difference :lol:

Your whole point is strawmanning, obviously, because I never once said people need to get over their lack of attraction. So, just can this garbage.
Of course that's what you said. Well, not that individuals need to get over their lack of attraction, but that that lack of attraction is transphobic, and that it is something inherently negative that needs to go away.

How, exactly, is it not prejudiced to say, "I'd never date a trans person, on account of them being trans?"

You don't appear to understand how physical attraction or relationships actually function, so I think I'll just leave it here.
How, exactly, is it not prejudiced to say, "I'd never date a smoker, on account of them being a smoker?"

Obviously because I have no problem with the person who is smoking, but with the habit of smoking. Again, I don't see why "knowing that a person has had a past as a gender they're not attracted to" cannot be a valid deal-breaker for a person. You just call it transphobia for reasons that you still haven't explained.
 
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How, exactly, is it not prejudiced to say, "I'd never date a smoker, on account of them being a smoker?"

Because being a smoker has a direct effect on the person dating them. It isn't implying that being a smoker makes them less of a person.
 
Of course that's what you said. Well, not that individuals need to get over their lack of attraction, but that that lack of attraction is transphobic, and that it is something inherently negative that needs to go away.

For the millionth time, I don't think it needs to go away. Things would be better if it did, but making people's feelings towards trans people disappear is not remotely realistic. But awareness of prejudice has a lot of benefits. The most obvious one being that people who are so inclined can teach their children not to be prejudiced. That's far and away the most effective tool to combat prejudice, but it's only available if people are aware of it.

How, exactly, is it not prejudiced to say, "I'd never date a smoker, on account of them being a smoker?"

Obviously because I have no problem with the person who is smoking, but with the habit of smoking. Again, I don't see why "knowing that a person has had a past as a gender they're not attracted to" cannot be a valid deal-breaker for a person. You just call it transphobia for reasons that you still haven't explained.

It is prejudiced to say you would never date a smoker. But you aren't judging them on some wholly irrational thing like being born with the wrong body parts, you're judging them for behavior of theirs which can potentially have serious negative health consequences for you (and them).

The whole idea of a phobia is that it is irrational. As I said above, not all refusals to date trans people are necessarily the product of transphobia, such as if you're dating with the long-term goal of procreation. But if your gauge of physical attraction turns on whether or not someone is trans, I don't know how you can say that is anything other than irrational. And throwing up examples of other prejudices doesn't help explain it.
 
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