Is not wanting to date trans individuals transphobic?

[Evie]

That new study you posted does not suggest that, because (as it helpfully point out), the survey it uses for data does not differentiate between suicide attempts before and after receiving treatment. It's entirely possible, and just as likely, (from the same data) to conclude that transgendered people who have attempted suicide are more likely to then transition. The study note this.

(This same flaw applies to a lot of the other questions in that survey - since we don't know whether they attempted suicide before or after coming out, we can't conclude on the impact.

I don't feel qualified to comment on something I have no experience of or particular knowledge of (eg, body integrity disorder).

I appreciate the wishes.

 

[metatron]

Really? That seems like a rather extreme conclusion to draw.

Just because you don't want to date someone doesn't mean that you hate their guts or anything they self-identify as or any groups they belong to. Personally I could not see myself dating someone who used to be a man. This is supposed to imply that I am bigoted against people who are trans? That's ridiculous.

Depending on what you meant by "man" there you are actually underestimating the case.

The man - in the past - can decide to be a woman, just like that, no SRS, no HRT, nothing. That woman can then try to engage with you romantically/sexually. If you reject her, categorically, based on her male phenotype, you'd be called a bigot.
Moreso, that woman, with the male phenotype, could further decide to be lesbian. If lesbian women reject her categorically, based on the male phenotype, they are bigots, society is transphobic and you are to blame. Because patriarchy.

This is the ideology, and implicitly this is what is being claimed in this thread as well:
Self-indentification is all that matters.
The whole spiel about the "well made parts" (as it were) is very much besides the point.

You can reject that woman, mind you, on an individual basis.
You can't do it on the basis of your perception of that woman's sex, you can't assert that you feel she's "kinda-male" or something like that. And you certainly can't do it categorically or preemptively.

 

[Akka]

TIt's all in your mind.

Yep.

This is transphobic.

Nope.

BTW, there has been several examples of how you can be attracted to someone, then learn something about them and lose attraction.
Unsurprisingly, the drones who repeat the same garbage "if you change your opinion then you're a bigot" seems to have a very selective reading/memory and always seem to "miss" these examples.

 

[Commodore]

But why would she be "lied to" about my status as trans, unless being trans was something negative? If I walked like a woman, quacked like a woman, and made love like a woman, does that not make me a woman? Why would me being trans have any bearing on the present except that being trans in itself is held to be something wrong. Which is, of course, transphobia.

I didn't say she would be lied to, I said she might feel lied to. Or maybe "lied to"is the wrong term, perhaps she would feel more betrayed. If you two were having a great time together and things seemed to be getting a little bit...serious, she probably built some idea of mutual trust in her mind. Not telling her you were trans until it just happened to come up in a story may make her feel like you don't reciprocate that feeling of trust. That maybe you only feel she's good enough to have sex with and hang out with, but not to trust with your most personal secrets. This would especially be the case if she shared something deeply personal about herself to you.

Now let me be clear: I'm not saying this hypothetical woman would be correct in thinking all that, I'm just saying sometimes people think like that. We build up all kinds of crazy thoughts in our heads and sometimes act rashly on those thoughts. Especially when it comes to romantic relationships. That's why I think it's a bit unfair to just default to transphobia as the reason someone may act different around you after telling them you are trans. There could be all kinds of other factors that cause the change in behavior that aren't related to transphobia.

 

[metalhead]

Dunno, an obese person might call you obesophobic because of that! An obese woman is just like any other woman, except for some very specific purposes (if you want to go rock-climbing with your partner, or something like that). So why not date one? And you will complain that labeling you obesophobic, knowing the "evil" connotation of "phobic" would be an attempt to pressure you into dating obese women...

Now really, if that is being -phobic, let people be whatever -phobic they wish in selecting parters. That is reality, as I tried to point out previously: preferences need not be rational. The jump from having preferences (however strong) to assuming some kind of larger social discrimination is not warranted.

And I do understand where this comes from. Trans people have a hard time because they have a much reduced pool of potential mates. And it sucks and they'd like it to be otherwise. As would the obese who complain about the conventional standards of beauty, and so on. Problem is, telling people that they are evil if they won't date someone who is trans (and backing it with a theory that transwomen are physically like women) won't work, anymore than a gay men telling a straight dude that he's evil for not wanting to date men (and backing it with some theory that all people are somewhat bi or whatever one pulls as a justification). The best advice, imho, is still: don't fight reality, accept it and make the best of it.

That's a pretty good parallel.

No, it's absurd and steeped in prejudice/transphobia.

The question nobody seems willing to answer is, what is the source of not wanting to date a trans woman? I get repeated parallels to homosexuals, to family members, etc. In other words, the question is ignored in favor of some irrelevant examples. If you are not physically attracted to a particular trans woman, of course you wouldn't date her. That's obvious. If you aren't attracted to men, then you aren't going to date men. There are legitimate, rational reasons to be repulsed at having copulated with a sibling.

But what about being trans makes a person fundamentally undesirable? That's the ultimate question here. In the hypothetical "I slept with a trans woman and got sick when I learned she was trans," you obviously were physically attracted to this person, so the idea that it's tied to a preference of physical attractiveness just doesn't add up. Google "trans models;" the women are drop-dead gorgeous. What you appear to be saying without actually saying it, is that the idea that the woman at some point in her life had a penis fundamentally disgusts you, to the point you are judging her physical desirability solely on that fact, and not on her actual physical attributes.

Moderator Action: Jabs about others 'capacity' and calling their posts 'stupid' are not helpful to this discussion. In fact, they are flaming and against the rules. FP
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Terxpahseyton]

You may as well ask: What makes heterosexuality fundamentally desirable?
I think you are trying to suggest that beyond visual cues this is mostly a cultural thing. I.e. culturally we got the idea into our heads, that a relationship with the same gender is gross. So even when we can't tell, it creeps us out as soon as we know, because we can not just relax and enjoy what is presented to us. On the one hand, you are probably right about that.
But on the other, to want sex with the opposite biological gender is a very fundamental factor of our species. So I think we also need to allow for the possibility that people need to know that this is the opposite biological sex not merely for cultural reasons, but also some innate need. Maybe this idea is not merely cultural, but also biological, to some extend. Some primitive urge to get close the other gender which exist beyond cultural norms and is not just there because you are a narrow-minded idiot.
Maybe you are a narrow-minded idiot, denying yourself potential great joy because of some dumb wall in your head, but weather it is worthwhile to tear down that wall or not, I think can not be generally said. So while you can advocate to be more open, I think you also have to respect if people do not care about that kind of openness.

 

[Senethro]

You may as well ask: What makes heterosexuality fundamentally desirable?
I think you are trying to suggest that beyond visual cues this is mostly a cultural thing. I.e. culturally we got the idea into our heads, that a relationship with the same gender is gross. So even when we can't tell, it creeps us out as soon as we know, because we can not just relax and enjoy what is presented to us. On the one hand, you are probably right about that.
But on the other, to want sex with the opposite biological gender is a very fundamental factor of our species. So I think we also need to allow for the possibility that people need to know that this is the opposite biological sex not merely for cultural reasons, but also some innate need. Maybe this idea is not merely cultural, but also biological, to some extend. Some primitive urge to get close the other gender which exist beyond cultural norms and is not just there because you are a narrow-minded idiot.
Maybe you are a narrow-minded idiot, denying yourself potential great joy because of some dumb wall in your head, but weather it is worthwhile to tear down that wall or not, I think can not be generally said. So while you can advocate to be more open, I think you also have to respect if people do not care about that kind of openness.

How many "What if"'s in there.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

There is only one, really, and it doesn't strike me as all that crazy.

I agree in theory that someone saying "I don't find people of X race attractive" is not necessarily a racist statement. But how do you view an entire race as ugly if you aren't racist? Did he preface that statement with, "I'm not racist, but . . . ?"

Over here you would say "I'm not foreigner-hostile, but...", which does not really fit in this case.

 

[Akka]

It's funny to notice the stubborn refusal to accept perfectly valid examples and parallels (without being able to actually show how they are wrong in any way), with the sole goal of being able to call people "bigots".

It's like talking with YEC who will circular-reason-out anything that proves them wrong.

Also, the whole idea that there is a "wrong" way to be attracted to someone. I can't wait to see how they will backflip to say the exact opposite next time there is a religious actual bigot explaining that homosexuals just have to stop liking men and start liking women.

You guys are really disgustingly hypocrital clowns.

 

[Kyriakos]

It is more a matter of connotation, imo. -phobic by now tends to signify an arguably irrational fear. Yet it is over-used, i mean you can be phobic to eating spinach, but you aren't actually afraid of it, you just do not like it.
In the end you can't regulate what anyone likes, nor should you.

 

[warpus]

You can't do it on the basis of your perception of that woman's sex, you can't assert that you feel she's "kinda-male" or something like that. And you certainly can't do it categorically or preemptively.

I can refuse to date a group of people based on any personal perception I want, shallow or not. In fact, since I only date a couple times a decade, I have an obligation to myself to only seek out people who I think I will have a potentially lasting romantic relationship with. Otherwise what's the point?

This isn't a free for all. People don't have a right to date my body and personality. Find the line in any constitution that allows everyone on the planet equal access to my body and mind and I will concede. But that just doesn't exist.

I'm not saying I wouldn't date someone transgendered because they're "kinda male". I have seen pictures. I know that this doesn't have to be a thing. I know that they self-identify and feel like 100% women. This is beside the point.

If I was saying "eww icky" or "I hate those transgendered people" you'd have a point. But I'm not. I'm looking for someone who I will be able to form a lasting romantic relationship with. The life experience that a transgendered person has gone through? I don't understand that. I lead a completely different life. I'm looking for a life partner who has been through similar life experiences as me, so that we are more likely to be compatible going forward. Like I already said, I wouldn't even date a farmer. We wouldn't mesh. I mean, we could, but given the limited number of dates I have, I'm not going to take a risk. I'm going to seek out people who I know I have a much higher chance of forming a lasting romantic relationship with. People who have similar life experiences as me and don't have to wake up at 5am each morning to tend to chickens or whatever it is that farmers do.

You can't tell me who I am and who I am not allowed to date. If you really want to take your crusade somewhere, take it to the people who are actually against transgendered people. They actually exist and are out there spreading their message. I'm just a guy who is very picky with his dating preferences

I mean, I understand that transgendered people must have a tough time in the dating world, because some people are really actually revulsed by them. But that doesn't mean you get to lower the bigotry bar so low as to include people like me. That just makes me think you have no idea what you're talking about, and are picking a fight just because you have nothing better to do.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

The question nobody seems willing to answer is, what is the source of not wanting to date a trans woman? I get repeated parallels to homosexuals, to family members, etc. In other words, the question is ignored in favor of some irrelevant examples.

Why are they irrelevant examples? They seem reasonably analagous. The key difference is that no-one feels the need to question the underlying reasons in these other examples. I mean you yourself say:

If you aren't attracted to men, then you aren't going to date men.

As if that's entirely self-evident and requires no further explanation, but there's no more actual reasoning given. And why should there be? Ultimately it's the individual's business and no-one else's.

What you appear to be saying without actually saying it, is that the idea that the woman at some point in her life had a penis fundamentally disgusts you, to the point you are judging her physical desirability solely on that fact, and not on her actual physical attributes.

And even if that is the reason for someone, so what? How is that fundamentally any different to "if the man currently has a penis and it disgusts you"? I suppose you can call that "transphobic" if you want, but it waters down the usefulness of the term and calls into question all the other typical cases of people not being attracted to other people for entirely "ugh, no thanks" reasons and how come we don't categorise all of them as bigotry too.

 

[metalhead]

It's funny to notice the stubborn refusal to accept perfectly valid examples and parallels (without being able to actually show how they are wrong in any way), with the sole goal of being able to call people "bigots".

Why do you need to offer parallels? Is it because you lack the capacity to argue the actual point?

But anyways since you asked - the parallel to men and homosexuality is stupid because a heterosexual man is not going to find masculine features sexually attractive, nor is the heterosexual man going to have any use for a person that has a penis, so that has nothing to do with trans people. Ditto with people who are obese, or have any other physical characteristic. It's a terrible analogy because it misses the point entirely. Turning down someone as a partner because you aren't physically attracted to them is rational. Turning down someone who you are physically attracted to because of body parts they no longer have is not the same thing, at all.

Being repulsed at the thought of copulating with a sibling is rational because there are real negative consequences. Not wanting to sleep with someone after finding out they are a close blood relative makes rational sense in a way that not wanting to sleep with a woman because she used to have a penis does not.

There, is that better? Now can you maybe try to stick to the topic and stop with the stupid irrelevant parallels.

You may as well ask: What makes heterosexuality fundamentally desirable?
I think you are trying to suggest that beyond visual cues this is mostly a cultural thing. I.e. culturally we got the idea into our heads, that a relationship with the same gender is gross. So even when we can't tell, it creeps us out as soon as we know, because we can not just relax and enjoy what is presented to us. On the one hand, you are probably right about that.
But on the other, to want sex with the opposite biological gender is a very fundamental factor of our species. So I think we also need to allow for the possibility that people need to know that this is the opposite biological sex not merely for cultural reasons, but also some innate need. Maybe this idea is not merely cultural, but also biological, to some extend. Some primitive urge to get close the other gender which exist beyond cultural norms and is not just there because you are a narrow-minded idiot.
Maybe you are a narrow-minded idiot, denying yourself potential great joy because of some dumb wall in your head, but weather it is worthwhile to tear down that wall or not, I think can not be generally said. So while you can advocate to be more open, I think you also have to respect if people do not care about that kind of openness.

Just because something might be innate, or an evolutionary imperative doesn't mean it has to control us. Part of being human is being the master of one's impulses, regardless of where they come from. The problem isn't that people have the reaction they claim, it's that when you challenge them they try to come up with all sorts of nonsense to try to explain it as if it's not negative, not prejudicial, when it quite clearly is. They made a whole movie about it. Maybe people around here need to watch The Crying Game. You don't have to be a slave to cultural or biological impulses. You don't have to write off an entire class of people as undesirable for no good reason.

 

[warpus]

What you appear to be saying without actually saying it, is that the idea that the woman at some point in her life had a penis fundamentally disgusts you

You don't have to be disgusted by something to not want to date a person. Such hyperbole.. I don't even know where this quote came from, yet it is so over the top ridiculous

 

[metalhead]

Dude, Akka intimated up above that he would puke all over the place if he slept with a woman and found out afterwards she was trans. What else would you call that?

Why are they irrelevant examples? They seem reasonably analagous. The key difference is that no-one feels the need to question the underlying reasons in these other examples. I mean you yourself say:


As if that's entirely self-evident and requires no further explanation, but there's no more actual reasoning given. And why should there be? Ultimately it's the individual's business and no-one else's.

And even if that is the reason for someone, so what? How is that fundamentally any different to "if the man currently has a penis and it disgusts you"? I suppose you can call that "transphobic" if you want, but it waters down the usefulness of the term and calls into question all the other typical cases of people not being attracted to other people for entirely "ugh, no thanks" reasons and how come we don't categorise all of them as bigotry too.

If I look at a man, he is probably going to look like a man, or at least, is not going to present feminine features. On account of BEING A MAN. I'm not going to be attracted to him because I won't. Do you not understand how a trans woman who presents with feminine features is different?

One is visually distinguishable from the types of people I am attracted to. Ditto obese people, skinny people, whatever other type of person you might want to throw out there as an analogy. Heck, there are trans women who retain masculine features who I wouldn't be attracted to either. But, there are trans women who are visually completely feminine, having features I find sexually attractive. They also have the parts I like to fool around with, so there is no issue with sexual compatibility which a person with a penis, trans or otherwise, doesn't qualify for. So if the person is visually attractive, and sexually compatible, and I still turn them down - then the basis for doing so is completely different than my reason for not wanting to be romantically involved with a man.

 

[Kyriakos]

^It isn't realistic to ask that people don't care if the person they were attracted to lied about their identity. I mean it is a terrible thing to do, even in lesser cases. Eg i really doubt that anyone would respond well to learning that the other person was wearing some prosthesis, or even just a wig, and deliberately hid that until they already were intimate. Of course it would happen due to insecurity, but that doesn't mean the other person can't react.

How hurt one person is does not cause how the other will react when finding out something which was hidden.

And it is ultimately meaningless too, for if the other person would like you as you are you should find out already, instead of playing a game.

 

[Ryika]

Just because something might be innate, or an evolutionary imperative doesn't mean it has to control us. Part of being human is being the master of one's impulses, regardless of where they come from. The problem isn't that people have the reaction they claim, it's that when you challenge them they try to come up with all sorts of nonsense to try to explain it as if it's not negative, not prejudicial, when it quite clearly is. They made a whole movie about it. Maybe people around here need to watch The Crying Game. You don't have to be a slave to cultural or biological impulses. You don't have to write off an entire class of people as undesirable for no good reason.

Change a few words, ignore the last two sentences and this reads like something a bigot would write in a plea against homosexuality.

Do you not understand how a trans woman who presents with feminine features is different?

One is visually distinguishable from the types of people I am attracted to. Ditto obese people, skinny people, whatever other type of person you might want to throw out there as an analogy.

I believe the age-example I made earlier does not fall into that category. If you're dating a person, you think they're 25, and they look like they're 25, but they're actually 35 (or the other way around), that will impact your attraction towards that person, and there's nothing you, or that person, can really do about it.

 

[Akka]

Find the line in any constitution that allows everyone on the planet equal access to my body and mind and I will concede. But that just doesn't exist.

No, even if one would find such a line, it would only prove that said Constitution is a moral wreck, it wouldn't proves it right.

If I was saying "eww icky" or "I hate those transgendered people" you'd have a point.

For the latter, yes. For the former, no. "ewww icky" is a totally acceptable reaction to the idea of having sex with a person you are unattracted to.
To repeat the same example for the 1000th time, the idea of having sex with a man is repulsive to me, it doesn't mean I have androphobia.
Trying to claim "being disgusted at the idea of having sex with a person" = "phobia over whatever group this person is part of" is one of the most repulsive attempt at brainwashing and thought police I've seen these past years. Don't give an inch about it.

You don't have to be disgusted by something to not want to date a person. Such hyperbole.. I don't even know where this quote came from, yet it is so over the top ridiculous

See above. Being disgusted by the existence of a person is phobia, being disgusted at the idea of having sex with said person isn't.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Dude, Akka intimated up above that he would puke all over the place if he slept with a woman and found out afterwards she was trans. What else would you call that?

If I look at a man, he is probably going to look like a man, or at least, is not going to present feminine features. On account of BEING A MAN. I'm not going to be attracted to him because I won't. Do you not understand how a trans woman who presents with feminine features is different?

One is visually distinguishable from the types of people I am attracted to. Ditto obese people, skinny people, whatever other type of person you might want to throw out there as an analogy. Heck, there are trans women who retain masculine features who I wouldn't be attracted to either. But, there are trans women who are visually completely feminine, having features I find sexually attractive. They also have the parts I like to fool around with, so there is no issue with sexual compatibility which a person with a penis, trans or otherwise, doesn't qualify for. So if the person is visually attractive, and sexually compatible, and I still turn them down - then the basis for doing so is completely different than my reason for not wanting to be romantically involved with a man.

Yes. Hence the relevance of the "finding out out she's your sister" example. Which also doesn't imply that you support the removal of rights and murder of your siblings. The whole point of that example isn't to deflect of avoid anything, it's to ask you why you don't apply the same standards in that situation.

To me the fundamental question is this: Why do you think that a refusal to date a particular subset of humans, for whatever arbitrary and personal reason (up to and including revulsion), must necessarily have a significant [negative] bearing on how you treat that subset of humans in any other walk of life?

The whole point of these examples is to show that there are cases where this does not apply, and to demonstrate that stating this is a self-evident truth isn't enough and actually needs to be backed up. As far as I can see the only person who's attempted to do this is Meg with her recent survey, but even that puts the cart before the horse as has been explained.

 

[Akka]

Dude, Akka intimated up above that he would puke all over the place if he slept with a woman and found out afterwards she was trans. What else would you call that?

Actually I was saying that about learning she was my sister. Not that I expect you to have any shred of good faith nor bothering to actually get an argument, you're too busy playing the white knight for that.

And now I feel dirty and revulsed that I actually lowered myself to answer to you.
I guess I'm metalhead-phobic, but that's something I'm actually rather proud of.

Moderator Action: Even in a heated discussion, there is no place for personal insults. FP
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889