Is not wanting to date trans individuals transphobic?

[Borachio]

Well, I don't know so much.

I was never so inundated with potential sexual partners or friends that I could afford to be the least bit picky.

And I never felt like being.

Of course, though, I did tend to stay well clear of people who appeared to be violently insane.

But generally speaking, I would nearly always find myself in the beginnings of a relationship before I'd entirely realized what was going on. A bit late then, I thought, to decide that that person's age, weight, height, colour or whatever was going to be a deal-breaker.

 

[Zelig]

Preferences are preferences. You don't get to decide them, you don't have to change them, and they don't mean you somehow are X-phobic inside. It's incredible to see people working so hard to find reason to look down on others because said others have their sexual preferences - especially hypocrital considering they tend to be the loudest defenders of people with, precisely, different sexual preferences. Double standards and so on.

You're assuming a double standard that doesn't (necessarily) exist. I admit that my not being willing to date trans individuals is transphobic.

 

[emzie]

FWIW, I don't think it's a problem to not want to date a transgender individual. I think it's a bit suspect to be overly forthcoming about your reservations. As an issue of tone, compare: "I wouldn't be comfortable with that" to "natural puss" or "the idea of chopping your balls off sends shivers down my spine."

 

[Evie]

I'll also note that denying who I am ("To me you're still a man) is not stating a preference. It's denying the very basis of what a transgendered person *is*. That, I have no hesitation in labeling intolerance, and (since, like homophobia, transphobia is used to cover not only fear but hostility and intolerance toward) transphobia.

There are plenty of good reason not to want to date me. "You sound way too masculine" could be one - and it's not transphobic. "I'm sorry, but your feature are too masculine for me" could be another. I mean, I still look very much like a man (no hormones yet), so I can see that being an issue to many lol. But there are many transgendered people who distinctly don't look like men, so making that a general argument against all trans doesn't fly.

"You're transgendered, therefore still a man" as a general affirmation on all transgendered people? Yeah, no. You're not in the land of good reasons anymore.

 

[Akka]

You're assuming a double standard that doesn't (necessarily) exist. I admit that my not being willing to date trans individuals is transphobic.

The double standard I'm talking about is when a person manage to both say "you can't judge someone on their sexual preferences" when defending homosexuals, and "you don't want to date person X because of your sexual preferences ? You're a bigot and a [X]phobe !".
If that's not pure, 100 % hypocrisy and double-standards, I don't know what is.

I'll also note that denying who I am ("To me you're still a man) is not stating a preference. It's denying the very basis of what a transgendered person *is*. That, I have no hesitation in labeling intolerance, and (since, like homophobia, transphobia is used to cover not only fear but hostility and intolerance toward) transphobia.

Bullcrap and pure thought police.
How YOU consider yourself has no influence on MY preferences. You're just doing exactly what you ask others not to, that is trying to enforce an opinion on someone else despite what they feel.

If I find a girl ugly and she considers herself beautiful, this neither means I'm denying her person, nor that she can try to use emotional blackmail to claim I should want to date her and find her attractive. She has no right to tell me what I should like or not.

Get down your victim horse and don't be what you ask others not to. Trying to claim people are "intolerant" because they aren't attracted to you is just plain idiotic and arrogant. That the reason they don't find you attractive ruffle your feathers is no excuse.

There are plenty of good reason not to want to date me.

"I'm not attracted to you" is sufficient as a reason, and being attracted to someone is not a conscious choice - unless you're going to claim that homosexuality is a choice, and then you're going to put yourself in hot waters.
As it's not a conscious choice, there is nothing to judge and nothing to whine about (except that the world is unjust or that people are shallow, but that's about it).

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If you didn't know, you wouldn't be able to tell, and hence wouldn't care.

This is nothing but posturing.

This brings up an interesting question about "obligation to tell." I know a guy who slept with a girl, who then told him that she started life as a boy. He freaked, in my opinion mostly because he's an idiot (my judging him an idiot is not based on this event).

So, whether a gynecologist can tell the difference or not I'm more than willing to accept that Mr Average Guy can't...unless they are told. Now, in a relationship that might be something that, if hidden, would indicate a serious lack of real intimacy...maybe. I mean, I wouldn't have a relationship where I hid my criminal history, former marriages, or basic views on life, so I think that would be something comparable. But this was not a relationship, this was more or less a pairing off at closing time.

So, was there any reason she had to tell him? If you were the guy would you want to know at that point?

"I'm not attracted to you" is sufficient as a reason, and being attracted to someone is not a conscious choice - unless you're going to claim that homosexuality is a choice, and then you're going to put yourself in hot waters.
As it's not a conscious choice, there is nothing to judge and nothing to whine about (except that the world is unjust or that people are shallow, but that's about it).

And this fits in. I get it. "Not a conscious choice." So, clearly, the guy was attracted (not by conscious choice) and only freaked out when he found out that his not conscious choice had "let him down." How would you react? Cute girl, you are attracted, then you are told a piece of information. Does your attraction, which is "not a conscious choice" suddenly not exist?

 

[Akka]

So, was there any reason she had to tell him? If you were the guy would you want to know at that point?

I would prefer to know beforehand

And this fits in. I get it. "Not a conscious choice." So, clearly, the guy was attracted (not by conscious choice) and only freaked out when he found out that his not conscious choice had "let him down." How would you react? Cute girl, you are attracted, then you are told a piece of information. Does your attraction, which is "not a conscious choice" suddenly not exist?

If you banged a girl and then learned that she was your sister (for whatever reason, you never encountered her before ), would you freak out ? I know I would.

In a completely different context and slightly different way (but somewhat a parallel), I met a girl some years ago. A really, really pretty girl. Not my usual style, as she was hispanic (half-Bolivian), but still I was pretty smitten.
Then, after getting to know her, I learned she had an outlook on life which was really, really something I highly disliked ("eat or be eaten", having a blast at getting money by firing people and feeling powerful, etc.). This pretty much killed all the attraction I had for her, because I started to find her "ugly" (if physically still a hottie). Not a conscious choice ("oh, she's pretty selfish, so I'm deciding to start to dislike her"), but just a general feeling of disgust replacing the feeling of desire.

Seems to me that informations that are not immediately apparent CAN condition your attraction for someone. Whoopsie, who would've guessed ?

 

[emzie]

I would prefer to know beforehand

If it's that important to you, ask.

If you banged a girl and then learned that she was your sister (for whatever reason, you never encountered her before ), would you freak out ? I know I would.

No, I wouldn't, but I'm also weird. Of course, I wouldn't go back for seconds >.<

 

[Zelig]

I think in any situation where there's something that a reasonable person might consider than their partner might consider as a dealbreaker, there's an obligation not to lie (even by ommission), even if the reason that the information would be a dealbreaker isn't good.

You can't lie to someone to get consent, even if the lack of consent is predicated on information that shouldn't be relevant.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I would prefer to know beforehand

If you banged a girl and then learned that she was your sister (for whatever reason, you never encountered her before ), would you freak out ? I know I would.

If it's that important to you, ask.

No, I wouldn't, but I'm also weird. Of course, I wouldn't go back for seconds >.<

There's the rub. I suspect that if I had asked every girl I ever got into bed if she had previously been a man a lot more of them would have said no. Fortunately for me I wouldn't ask because I wouldn't care.

I also wouldn't "freak out" over the sister thing. The roots of that taboo are very valid concerns about inbreeding defects. Since bedding and breeding are two different things I could pretty easily shrug that off. I saw a movie once where the cheating mother knew that her daughter's new boyfriend was actually her half brother, with the complication that they were "potentially serious," which could have lead to breeding. That's a complex problem, but finding out that a quick roll was with someone you don't want to breed with? No big deal.

 

[emzie]

There's the rub. I suspect that if I had asked every girl I ever got into bed if she had previously been a man a lot more of them would have said no. Fortunately for me I wouldn't ask because I wouldn't care.

Guess that's kinda my point. If it's a one night stand, and you can't tell, does it matter? How much should you really expect from a one night stand?

 

[Evie]

Akka, if "I'm not attracted to you" is sufficient (and it should be), why did you bother to add "to me you're still a man"? You're right, that's all you need. You're not attracted toward me.

But you felt the need to crouch it in terms of me "still being a man". You took the discussion there. Not me. You went beyond preferences. Not me. You passed a judgement on what transgendered people are. Not me. You denied the very basis of being transgendered in an effort to justify your preference. Not me. You felt the need to do these things to justify your preferences.

Don't hide from the meaning of your own words behind whines of thought police.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Guess that's kinda my point. If it's a one night stand, and you can't tell, does it matter? How much should you really expect from a one night stand?

I'm in complete agreement. My question when I heard about my acquaintance's misadventure was (and remains); why did she tell him afterwards?

 

[Akka]

If it's that important to you, ask.

Not awkward at all.

No, I wouldn't, but I'm also weird. Of course, I wouldn't go back for seconds >.<

Well, you're very different than me. The very thought makes me nauseous. And I'm not even making an hyperbole for effect. Urgh...

I also wouldn't "freak out" over the sister thing. The roots of that taboo are very valid concerns about inbreeding defects. Since bedding and breeding are two different things I could pretty easily shrug that off. I saw a movie once where the cheating mother knew that her daughter's new boyfriend was actually her half brother, with the complication that they were "potentially serious," which could have lead to breeding. That's a complex problem, but finding out that a quick roll was with someone you don't want to breed with? No big deal.

The whole inbreeding thing is a red herring in my opinion. The utter disgust at incest doesn't come from cold calulation about the genetical risks of the children - no "cold calculation" result can cause such a visceral repulsiveness. It's just a way to rationalize.
I'd say it simply comes from the gut instinct of the Westermark effect. I might not have known the girl beforehand, but it gets mixed with "it's like if I had banged my [mother/other sister/whatever other close family member available]" and this cause a wave of disgust. At least it does in me.

 

[emzie]

I'm in complete agreement. My question when I heard about my acquaintance's misadventure was (and remains); why did she tell him afterwards?

I'm not one for one night stands. It would take a lot of personal connection to get in my pants. Why she did it, I don't know. Unless she was looking to extend the one night stand into a relationship, it wasn't a good call on her part.

The whole inbreeding thing is a red herring in my opinion. The utter disgust at incest doesn't come from cold calulation about the genetical risks of the children - no "cold calculation" result can cause such a visceral repulsiveness. It's just a way to rationalize.
I'd say it simply comes from the gut instinct of the Westermark effect. I might not have known the girl beforehand, but it gets mixed with "it's like if I had banged my [mother/other sister/whatever other close family member available]" and this cause a wave of disgust. At least it does in me.

The psychological aversion to incest comes from growing up together, especially the first 6-8 years of your life.

 

[Akka]

Akka, if "I'm not attracted to you" is sufficient (and it should be), why did you bother to add "to me you're still a man"?

Because the question was "would you date a transperson".

The later is not a preference. It's a judgement of who I am, and is bigoted.

I already answered this part. Let me repeat it, as it seems you're filtering it out because it displeases you :

How YOU consider yourself has no influence on MY preferences. You're just doing exactly what you ask others not to, that is trying to enforce an opinion on someone else despite what they feel.

If I find a girl ugly and she considers herself beautiful, this neither means I'm denying her person, nor that she can try to use emotional blackmail to claim I should want to date her and find her attractive. She has no right to tell me what I should like or not.

Emphasis on the bolded part.

The psychological aversion to incest comes from growing up together, especially the first 6-8 years of your life.

Uh, yes, that's exactly what the Westermark effect is.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Not awkward at all.

Well, you're very different than me. The very thought makes me nauseous. And I'm not even making an hyperbole for effect. Urgh...

The whole inbreeding thing is a red herring in my opinion. The utter disgust at incest doesn't come from cold calulation about the genetical risks of the children - no "cold calculation" result can cause such a visceral repulsiveness. It's just a way to rationalize.
I'd say it simply comes from the gut instinct of the Westermark effect. I might not have known the girl beforehand, but it gets mixed with "it's like if I had banged my [mother/other sister/whatever other close family member available]" and this cause a wave of disgust. At least it does in me.

Westermarck is desensitization, not disgust, and comes from living in conditions of close proximity under "no sex allowed" circumstances. One of my gay friends in prison was the first person to bring it to my attention. The point being that this "I didn't know she was my sister" presumably did not grow up in close proximity no sex allowed conditions with you, so it doesn't apply.

The effectiveness of the simile "it's like if I had banged my sister" for causing "a wave of disgust" is rooted in the taboo, which is rooted in the inbreeding issue.

 

[emzie]

Uh, yes, that's exactly what the Westermark effect is.

Today I learned a new term!

 

[Akka]

Westermarck is desensitization, not disgust, and comes from living in conditions of close proximity under "no sex allowed" circumstances. One of my gay friends in prison was the first person to bring it to my attention.

The effectiveness of the simile "it's like if I had banged my sister" for causing "a wave of disgust" is rooted in the taboo, which is rooted in the inbreeding issue.

I don't agree, but that's honestly completely beside the point.
The point was that you can be attracted to a person with the amount of information you have, but suddendly lose all attraction when you learn more. It's normal and not linked to any sort of dirty "ism" word.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I'm not one for one night stands. It would take a lot of personal connection to get in my pants. Why she did it, I don't know. Unless she was looking to extend the one night stand into a relationship, it wasn't a good call on her part.

Knowing the guy he had given her every indication that he would be interested in an extended relationship, so it is distinctly possible she misread that situation. Personally, I have a rule of thumb that anyone I sleep with before I know much of anything about them will almost certainly find a deal breaker if they get to know me, so I make it abundantly clear the "relationship" is a short pier and not a long walk.