Is not wanting to date trans individuals transphobic?

[Timsup2nothin]

No son, I'm saying that requiring a defense for a refusal to date is subhuman level thinking. We aren't even on the same level. I reject the premises required to even get to where you're starting as beneath contempt.

It is worse to attach the vernacular of literally murderous social struggle to it.

Question. Do you see a difference between these two statements:

"I would not date black women."

"I have never met a black woman that I was attracted to in a way that I would date her."

If so, what is the difference?

 

[Robo-Star]

I hope we can all agree that not wanting to go to a date with a specific trans individual does not make you transphobic, however, the question becomes more interesting when you deal with people who say they will categorically not see trans individuals as possible dating partners, or that finding out that a partner is trans, even if they pass so well that they didn't notice until they were told, is a deal-breaker.

Some people argue that such a preference is inherently transphobic, and shows biases that the person holds against the trans community, after all, you could just date the individual and see if they are the a person that you get along with if you didn't think that there's something inherently "wrong", or undesirable, in being with a being trans individual. Some of them also go a bit further and say that a person who does not have an anti-trans bias - at least subconsciously - would not even consider the idea of wanting to remove trans individuals from their dating sphere.

Other people argue that sexual preferences, and knowing ones preferences, is not transphobic, after all, not wanting to date black-haired people for example does not mean you think less of them, or only wanting to date japanese people does not mean you think they're the Masterrace. These people often argue that there are still differences between a person who was born as the gender that they represent as, and a person who was not, and that not wanting to deal with the extra baggage is a personal choice that also does not tell us anything about their opinion about trans individuals as members of our society.

So now that I've probably utterly misrepresented and angered both sides... what's your take?

Not wanting to date trans individuals = transphobic
Not wanting to date individuals with certain sexual characteristics =/= transphobic

 

[Farm Boy]

Question. Do you see a difference between these two statements:

"I would not date black women."

"I have never met a black woman that I was attracted to in a way that I would date her."

If so, what is the difference?

Manners. At best.

 

[Evie]

Not really related to any specific post, but I think it's worth pointing out somethign about tolerance and racism/sexism/etc

Namely, that it's possible to have racist/sexism/transphobic/homophobic views and ideas, and still be an excellent person. That's what tolerance is all about. Tolerance doesn't say "I see nothing wrong with who you are and what you do" ; that's acceptance. Tolerance, on the other hand, is all about "I think what you do is wrong/I don't like it. But I will push that aside, and stand by you anyway." That's the core of what tolerance means - etymologically, the word first appeared to describe one's ability to endure pain ; in a broader sense, it's willingness to allow others to do things one disagree with or dislikes.

(In fact, it may be said that one CANNOT be tolerant if one is not in some way racist/sexist/etc)

IOW, being told that some idea you're expressing is racist/etc, does not make you a bad person. Most importantly, it does not make you intolerant.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Because the "don't be a jerk" used in the thread was "if you aren't attracted to a trans because they're a trans, you're transphobic/bigot". So not at all "don't be a jerk".
It's true that there is endless looping, I seem to remember we already had an exchange that was near-exactly identical

Yes we have, and then, just like I am now, I pointed out that what was actually said when it was pointed out that you were being a jerk was that your gratuitously added reasoning, ie "to me you're still a man and that makes me puke" was not only directly and needlessly offensive, but it was basically the same sort of reasoning claimed by people who follow it with "so beating you up is reasonable" and any number of other inhumanities.

NO ONE, EVER, has said "you must overcome your thoughts and date a trans person."

NO ONE, EVER, has said that you can't think whatever thoughts pop into your head.

All of the circular logic growing more and more heated has resulted from exactly what you said is missing...someone (who knows who he is) didn't just agree with "don't be a jerk."

 

[Synobun]

Moderator Action: Please stop circling back to the "don't be a jerk" mod note. It is bordering dangerously close to PDMA and serves no real purpose in the discussion either.

 

[Farm Boy]

No, Oda, it just makes you like the Klan for not wanting to shtup specific people. I mean, it's not the same even though it's their primary attribute. Here's a truckload of bullfeces as to why it's different. It all stems from the premise that attraction is owed by default rather than offered to specific individuals positively.

 

[Akka]

Question. Do you see a difference between these two statements:

"I would not date black women."

"I have never met a black woman that I was attracted to in a way that I would date her."

If so, what is the difference?

Speaking of endless looping, haven't we already gone through that already too ?

I'd say the first person sees something in black women that he doesn't feel attractive in itself, while the second doesn't.
If this something is that he feels black women are inferior in some way, it's racist. If it's just something that doesn't click with his preferences, it isn't. I don't see what's so difficult to understand.

Not really related to any specific post, but I think it's worth pointing out somethign about tolerance and racism/sexism/etc

Namely, that it's possible to have racist/sexism/transphobic/homophobic views and ideas, and still be an excellent person. That's what tolerance is all about. Tolerance doesn't say "I see nothing wrong with who you are and what you do" ; that's acceptance. Tolerance, on the other hand, is all about "I think what you do is wrong/I don't like it. But I will push that aside, and stand by you anyway." That's the core of what tolerance means - etymologically, the word first appeared to describe one's ability to endure pain.

To which we can deduce that in this thread, the side preaching for tolerance is the one who is being intolerant - because it's the side which actual pass moral judgement, while the other side is more on the "I don't want to date them, but I don't pass judgement on them".
Funny how these things work.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I think what really set things off wasn't the "not wanting to date." I think it was that some people felt it necessary to add "because to me you are still a man and that makes me want to puke" and when it was pointed out that they sounded like they were saying the same sort of things that someone who may very well consider killing or otherwise oppressing a trans person to be "just desserts" they scoffed and tried to bluster out of it.

Err... on the ond hand, yes I'll agree there has been some confusion and back-and-forthing between "I don't want to date" and "I still see you as a man", and that's not been ideal and has mixed things up more than they should have been. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure absolutely no-one has appended "... and that makes me want to puke" to the latter.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Manners. At best.

This is a rare thing for me, but I genuinely don't believe you. I have read far too many of your posts to believe that is the difference that you see. I recognize that my question was a clear trap, but I'm pretty sure that you know you are in it.

 

[Robo-Star]

Not really related to any specific post, but I think it's worth pointing out somethign about tolerance and racism/sexism/etc

Namely, that it's possible to have racist/sexism/transphobic/homophobic views and ideas, and still be an excellent person. That's what tolerance is all about. Tolerance doesn't say "I see nothing wrong with who you are and what you do" ; that's acceptance. Tolerance, on the other hand, is all about "I think what you do is wrong/I don't like it. But I will push that aside, and stand by you anyway." That's the core of what tolerance means - etymologically, the word first appeared to describe one's ability to endure pain ; in a broader sense, it's willingness to allow others to do things one disagree with or dislikes.

(In fact, it may be said that one CANNOT be tolerant if one is not in some way racist/sexist/etc)

Unless one can allow others to do racist/sexist/etc things when one disagrees with or dislikes racism/sexism/etc.

 

[Farm Boy]

No, I reject the premise Tim. The premise is stupid and uncivilized. I got the words better, finally, to Oda in the last sentece. Which is why I've been trying to mock the morality around sexual behavior for pages. You were supposed to read an implied w-word into what kind of date was even better than the one you were laying out.

But hey, maybe you're just lying, eh?

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Not really related to any specific post, but I think it's worth pointing out somethign about tolerance and racism/sexism/etc

Namely, that it's possible to have racist/sexism/transphobic/homophobic views and ideas, and still be an excellent person. That's what tolerance is all about. Tolerance doesn't say "I see nothing wrong with who you are and what you do" ; that's acceptance. Tolerance, on the other hand, is all about "I think what you do is wrong/I don't like it. But I will push that aside, and stand by you anyway." That's the core of what tolerance means - etymologically, the word first appeared to describe one's ability to endure pain ; in a broader sense, it's willingness to allow others to do things one disagree with or dislikes.

(In fact, it may be said that one CANNOT be tolerant if one is not in some way racist/sexist/etc)

IOW, being told that some idea you're expressing is racist/etc, does not make you a bad person. Most importantly, it does not make you intolerant.

I'd 90% agree with all that. But then how does that equate with being called a bigot? How do you have a tolerant bigot? Isn't being intolerant at the heart of being a bigot? Because I'm pretty sure the word bigot has been flying around quite a lot too.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Err... on the ond hand, yes I'll agree there has been some confusion and back-and-forthing between "I don't want to date" and "I still see you as a man", and that's not been ideal and has mixed things up more than they should have been. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure absolutely no-one has appended "... and that makes me want to puke" to the latter.

Look again. It didn't come out immediately, but once a few loops around had been made and things got a little heated it actually did.

Speaking of endless looping, haven't we already gone through that already too ?

I'd say the first person sees something in black women that he doesn't feel attractive in itself, while the second doesn't.
If this something is that he feels black women are inferior in some way, it's racist. If it's just something that doesn't click with his preferences, it isn't. I don't see what's so difficult to understand.

Sure we have. My position hasn't changed, and you haven't given up on having been a jerk and slipping away under cover of "that's not what I meant."

So, let's take a look at this gigantic "if."

The guy "sees something in black women that he feels is unattractive." Other than "they're black," what might this something be that all black women, including black women he has never met, are going to have in common? I mean, I'm willing to give your argument some space here, but I genuinely cannot think what this mysterious turn off might be. Help me out. Otherwise, yes, the guy is in fact saying, in so many words, that he feels black women are inferior.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Unless one can allow others to do racist/sexist/etc things when one disagrees with or dislikes racism/sexism/etc.

Personally, I have no desire to be that tolerant, and I've never claimed that I am.

 

[Akka]

Yes we have, and then, just like I am now, I pointed out that what was actually said when it was pointed out that you were being a jerk was that your gratuitously added reasoning, ie "to me you're still a man and that makes me puke" was not only directly and needlessly offensive, but it was basically the same sort of reasoning claimed by people who follow it with "so beating you up is reasonable" and any number of other inhumanities.

NO ONE, EVER, has said "you must overcome your thoughts and date a trans person."

NO ONE, EVER, has said that you can't think whatever thoughts pop into your head.

There is only one thing I'll agree with you on this part : it's true it's an endless looping.
Every. Single. Aspect. has been already answered, so I refer you back to where I answered them the first time.

 

[Akka]

Sure we have. My position hasn't changed, and you haven't given up on having been a jerk and slipping away under cover of "that's not what I meant."

So, let's take a look at this gigantic "if."

The guy "sees something in black women that he feels is unattractive." Other than "they're black," what might this something be that all black women, including black women he has never met, are going to have in common? I mean, I'm willing to give your argument some space here, but I genuinely cannot think what this mysterious turn off might be. Help me out. Otherwise, yes, the guy is in fact saying, in so many words, that he feels black women are inferior.

I also already have answered this one, page 3 :

Because colour are also part of preferences ?
I mean, I have a very strong preference for clear eyes (blue/grey/green). Yet it's just a colour. Does that mean I'm brown eyeist ?
(for the record I *have* brown eyes myself)

Unless you consider colour preferences as "considering someone inferior", to which I would only be able to throw my arms up in air and roll my eyes.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

There is only one thing I'll agree with you on this part : it's true it's an endless looping.
Every. Single. Aspect. has been already answered, so I refer you back to where I answered them the first time.

You'll note that I absented myself from the thread for a while, because I recognized the endless loop. But what is making it an endless loop is that you continue to answer rather than listen. What you said was directly and immediately pointed out as being offensive. Your response has been an endless loop of answers about how the offended party has no right to take offense. Among those answers you have tried "appending 'to me' onto it should have cancelled your right to take offense," and a variety of "I just can't help excuses" excuses.

Rather than fall back on "that should do" maybe you can try something else.

 

[Arakhor]

Moderator Action: This thread is clearly not going very far at the moment and has been closed for review.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889