Is rejecting democracy extremist?

[Tahuti]

During the last European elections I was eligible to vote, yet didn't even though I am not opposed to European integration. Although it arguably had a couple of reasons, I do not believe in the righteousness of democratic institutions. Is this extremist?

 

[Tarquelne]

I do not believe in the righteousness of democratic institutions. Is this extremist?

It's more likely "legitimate disillusionment."

It becomes "extremist" when you start advocating some crazy-ass system you think is better. Especially if explosives are involved.

 

[Joecoolyo]

Rejecting it is not extremist. But a lot of ideas to replace it are.

 

[.Shane.]

Extreme, no? Adorable? yes!

 

[Borachio]

Are you talking about "democracy" as we find it today? I suspect you might be, in which case a bit of healthy scepticism is only to be expected.

Or are you talking about democracy in the sense of some vague ideal about people governing themselves? And wouldn't that be a good idea?

 

[warpus]

Not unless you put on a mask and start marching down the street with like-minded individuals, chanting for democratic institutions to be dismantled, no matter what the cost.

 

[Tahuti]

Or are you talking about democracy in the sense of some vague ideal about people governing themselves? And wouldn't that be a good idea?

Well, real democracy will never exist unless a fundamental alteration of human nature occurs. Regardless the amount of lip service paid to egalitarianism, it is in human nature for the masses to be governed by a model minority. However, a formalised system of elections, combined with a powerful mass media has opened the way for plutocratic manipulation. So my problem with modernist democracy is that opens the door for hierarchies based on lack of virtue: Whoever is the most manipulative becomes the most powerful.

 

[Borachio]

I think I probably agree.

The trouble I have, though, is that withdrawing from the existing process isn't going to make any difference to it.

Unless, I suppose, everyone did.

(Plenty, if not the majority, of people don't participate. I'd actually argue for compulsory participation.)

 

[Tahuti]

I'd actually argue for compulsory participation.

That's not going to work because you can always cast blank votes, unless votes are casted orally.

Speaking which, I would support oral voting. It is non-secret, yet I think individuals should be held accountable for the political choices they make, or lack of it.

 

[Borachio]

I think it's fine to cast blank, or spoilt ballots. Thereby registering your apathy actively instead of passively.

My brother who lives in Tasmania, where voting is compulsory, told me of a candidate, fighting an election against one other person, who managed to come third in the ballot. That was him told, in no uncertain terms.

 

[Ghpstage]

Well theres a difference between voting and participating in a democracy. Most people who vote don't really participate. They just vote the way that somebody else has (almost universally) dishonestly told them, rather than spending time actually reading up on issues and the voting options. Theres also the problem that on any one policy the vast majority of the public aren't really knowledge enough to have a meaningful opinion, which reinforces, and encourages more propoganda.

This is one problem thats unfortunately at the core of what Kaiserguard is talking about here,

Well, real democracy will never exist unless a fundamental alteration of human nature occurs. Regardless the amount of lip service paid to egalitarianism, it is in human nature for the masses to be governed by a model minority. However, a formalised system of elections, combined with a powerful mass media has opened the way for plutocratic manipulation. So my problem with modernist democracy is that opens the door for hierarchies based on lack of virtue: Whoever is the most manipulative becomes the most powerful.

Disinterest, propoganda and special interests reign.
It gets even worse in FPTP systems like the UK where the government can easily be made up of a group of people that more than half the voters hate, and the status quo can't easily be solved as creating a new political part risks splitting the vote on what you would consider the reasonable 'side'. i.e. the Lib Dems have arguably damaged the left as a whole historically, merely by existing, by taking votes that would almost certainly favour labour over tories.

I also have an issue with party whips, as they exist with the singular purpose of coercing democratically elected officials to go with a party decision that their constituents would oppose.....


/rant

 

[Gori the Grey]

a formalised system of elections, combined with a powerful mass media has opened the way for plutocratic manipulation.

I've been terribly discouraged by this myself lately.

And you know what else is bumming me out. The internet hasn't proven to be the can't-be-controlled-by-the-rich seedbed for authentic democracy that one once might have hoped it would. All it has done is atomize the demos by the most trivial of their passtime interests. Hrumph.

Wish I could offer something more positive and hopeful.

 

[Tahuti]

I've been terribly discouraged by this myself lately.

And you know what else is bumming me out. The internet hasn't proven to be the can't-be-controlled-by-the-rich seedbed for authentic democracy that one once might have hoped it would. All it has done is atomize the demos by the most trivial of their passtime interests. Hrumph.

Wish I could offer something more positive and hopeful.

Frankly, YouTube comments display all what is wrong with democratic societies.

 

[GoodGame]

During the last European elections I was eligible to vote, yet didn't even though I am not opposed to European integration. Although it arguably had a couple of reasons, I do not believe in the righteousness of democratic institutions. Is this extremist?

Criticizing democracy is totally legit. Humans are always fallible, so any government centered on them is prone to some fallacy. Democracy seems to me to function best on internal criticism.


Rejecting democracy as a form of government is probably extreme in the way that the alternatives are basically just elitism, fascism, theocracy, etc.. etc...

Criticizing democratic styles of leadership or management is totally legit. Sometimes leading / managing with a democratic style is in-fact the worst way.

 

[CavLancer]

Choosing ideas is better than having them shoved down your throat, shot or tortured for disageeing, and a lot of more moderate daily abuses which come from people above criticism making choices for the citizenry.

 

[Antilogic]

Extreme, no? Adorable? yes!

The context of your user title and avatar (that looks like a guy with a suicide vest) makes this post especially funny.

That's not going to work because you can always cast blank votes, unless votes are casted orally.

Speaking which, I would support oral voting. It is non-secret, yet I think individuals should be held accountable for the political choices they make, or lack of it.

I'd respect the privacy of voters in this case.

But I definitely agree with the idea that participation should be more widespread and blank votes should be recorded. Maybe you could even list a reason on the ballot why you don't want to vote for either candidate as well. Something to formally register voter disapproval instead of just guessing at it afterwards based on turnout.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Frankly, YouTube comments display all what is wrong with democratic societies.

Well, yes, and that points to the main reason why the internet hasn't proven a boon to democracies. We all participate on it anonymously.

I don't mean to make this thread about the internet and democracy. It's just that there went our last hope against the plutocrats.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

During the last European elections I was eligible to vote, yet didn't even though I am not opposed to European integration. Although it arguably had a couple of reasons, I do not believe in the righteousness of democratic institutions. Is this extremist?

I also didn't vote. My reason was I didn't care enough to be bothered. I feel that was the mainstream reason.

But I'm interested in your disbelief in the righteousness of democratic institutions. I can relate. As soon as I find a better alternative I'm going to support that, so let me know if you have found one. I'll be all ears.

Extreme, no? Adorable? yes!

Shane you devil, if people like you posted more I might rekindle my affection for CFC.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Democracies suck ass, but what is the alternative? I'm with Ziggy on this one, I'm all ears to a better alternative.

 

[Gori the Grey]

As soon as I find a better alternative I'm going to support that

Yeah, worst except for all the others.

Hardly a rallying cry.