Islam and fascism (split from IS thread)

How clever. Define fascism to depend on nationalism. Nationalism didn't exist before the 18th century, Islam did. Hence Islam can't be referd to as fasicst. Then cite an author who wrote 70 years ago that the term "fascism" was overused, to silence anyone who notices similarities.

That's simply not true - 'Islam', like 'Christianity' (or 'England', incidentally) changes in meaning over time. It would be entirely theoretically possible for somebody to emerge and argue, as below, that the community of Muslims constituted a natural political group, that it was a chosen community possessed of a divine mission revealed only to a particular (mortal) leader, that blindly following this leader was preferable to intellectual debate, reasoning and democracy (a key part of fascism; fascists, unlike nearly all of the other young ideologies of the past century, don't write much theory - compare their output with the Communists'!), that muscular and military work should be glorified, and so on and so forth - then you could have Islamic fascism. The point, however, is that Islam, as practiced (being a combination of what is written in the Koran and the interpretations, beliefs, traditions, attitudes and practices of the members of the religion) is not that. You can find similarities, much as you can find similarities between American ways of expressing patriotism and those used in fascist countries - a daily pledge of allegiance in schools, a culture which glorifies the military, saluting the flag and so on. That does not make America a fascist country. Even if you found an American arguing that American values were the same as fascist values, most Americans don't agree with him, and don't act like fascists. I would argue that the single Ubermensch of a leader is the crucial (missing) element in both.
 
As an American, I say that all those things do come off as rather fascist! The US as a whole still isn't fascist, and has a long way to go to catch up to countries like North Korea and Russia, but it's important to remember that all those nasty elements of many forms of Islam and American patriotism don't suddenly become acceptable just because they're not technically fascism, any more than a massacre of hundreds of thousands is alright just because it wasn't technically genocide.
 
It would be entirely theoretically possible for somebody to emerge and argue, as below, that the community of Muslims constituted a natural political group, that it was a chosen community possessed of a divine mission revealed only to a particular (mortal) leader, that blindly following this leader was preferable to intellectual debate, reasoning and democracy (...), that muscular and military work should be glorified, and so on and so forth - then you could have Islamic fascism. The point, however, is that Islam, as practiced (...) is not that.

But it is that! At least for vast numbers of its followers. That is just the point. We are not talking about vague similarities, or comparing America, a pluralistic open society with freedom of speech and equal rights as its defining characteristics, to a fascist system.
The central aspects of fascism can all be found in the specific ways that many Muslims practise their religion, which includes a pronounced political world view. Abdel-Samad and others refer to the adherence to the political side of Islam as Islamism, and while I am not very fond of the term (since it suggests a dichotomy which in practise is difficult to sustain), it is this political element of the ideology which contains and openly promotes all the defining characteristics of fascism.

You are right of course that terms change their meaning over time, and perhaps one day all Muslims will consider Islam a private matter, no longer believe in Muslim superiority, value rational discourse over blind faith, no longer be interested in the divine mission of spreading their religion, be opposed to the use of violence, and view their inerrant leader in a symbolic or metaphorical way. That is the ultimate goal, which I will probably not live long enough to witness. But when it comes, we can say that Islam in practise is truly cleansed of its fascist ballast.
But in today's time, the political side of Islam is still strong, and unfortunately it represents the dominant interpretation among the political and academic elites in most Muslim majority countries. But it is being challenged by moderate and secular Muslims, who are fighting a battle of ideas and strive for a new Islamic narrative, and as a result must fear for their lives. We must support these reformers against the fascist Islamic orthodoxy. And the first step in doing so is to identify the specific problems that lie at the root of political Islam.
 
I see you didn't actually bother to read any books on Fascism. Nor Islam for that matter. To start with the latter, Islam rose quite a few centuries before nationalism, which is a movement primarily from the 19th century. If you'd read any texts from either Fascists or Nazis, you'll find very little reference to the French revolution. Islamic thought - apart from the odd philosopher - has had next to naught influence on Western thought.

Your first statement is incorrect. I suspect that you see my posts as a misguided attempt at historical analysis. It is more of a philosophical analysis.

Islam did rise a couple of centuries before modern nationalism, no one disputes that and needs no mentioning.

Anyway, compared to European Feudalism, the concept of Ummah was remarkably close to modern Nationalism. While the French revolution is never directly mentioned favourably by most Nazis texts, they nevertheless were a pivotal event that enabled Fascism to rise in the future: It set a trend for centralised states based on common language, with the implied addendum that such had alledgedly a common racial origin. Considering Islamic states in the Middle Ages were more centralised than Feudal Europe, the notion those may have started the trend is not completely out of the question. The thing is that lack of reference in literature does not disprove any notion that one may influence on another, since that influence may also come in the form of the perception of trends instead. Mind you that like Islam, racism is not a central tenet of Fascism, unlike Nazism which was a rather Germanocentric subform of Fascism.

Of course, there are obvious differences between Fascism and Islam: Islam is a religion, Fascism is an ideology which leaves religious questions open - provided it is considered in the interest of the nation - and Fascism is particularistic, compared to the universalist ethos of Islam.

I may by accident have implied that Fascism is directly secularised form of Islam, which was an impression I did not attempt to make. Rather, Islam and Fascism share some common underpinnings in the same way Christianity can be seen as an influence on Socialism, through Thomas Moore's 'Utopia', for istance.
 
But it is that! At least for vast numbers of its followers. That is just the point. We are not talking about vague similarities, or comparing America, a pluralistic open society with freedom of speech and equal rights as its defining characteristics, to a fascist system.
The central aspects of fascism can all be found in the specific ways that many Muslims practise their religion, which includes a pronounced political world view. Abdel-Samad and others refer to the adherence to the political side of Islam as Islamism, and while I am not very fond of the term (since it suggests a dichotomy which in practise is difficult to sustain), it is this political element of the ideology which contains and openly promotes all the defining characteristics of fascism.

You are right of course that terms change their meaning over time, and perhaps one day all Muslims will consider Islam a private matter, no longer believe in Muslim superiority, value rational discourse over blind faith, no longer be interested in the divine mission of spreading their religion, be opposed to the use of violence, and view their inerrant leader in a symbolic or metaphorical way. That is the ultimate goal, which I will probably not live long enough to witness. But when it comes, we can say that Islam in practise is truly cleansed of its fascist ballast.
But in today's time, the political side of Islam is still strong, and unfortunately it represents the dominant interpretation among the political and academic elites in most Muslim majority countries. But it is being challenged by moderate and secular Muslims, who are fighting a battle of ideas and strive for a new Islamic narrative, and as a result must fear for their lives. We must support these reformers against the fascist Islamic orthodoxy. And the first step in doing so is to identify the specific problems that lie at the root of political Islam.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree, but I don't believe that most Muslims today support blind faith over rational discourse (which is not the same as believing that religious faith is not a matter of logic), support the use of violence to spread their religion, and consider that they have a single, infalliable leader. That sounds like one of the many scare stories we've had over the years, in which a vaguely-defined crowd of foreigners (be they the Chinese, the Russians, or before our time the Germans and the French) are waiting overseas to come and spread their decadence and awfulness into our wonderful (impeccably white) paradise.
 
I think we'll have to agree to disagree, but I don't believe that most Muslims today support blind faith over rational discourse (which is not the same as believing that religious faith is not a matter of logic), support the use of violence to spread their religion, and consider that they have a single, infalliable leader.
I didn't say most Muslims believe in these things. There is a spectrum for each of these beliefs, and the degree to which Muslims hold them will differ. For example, the majority of Muslims do not support the use of violence, at least in most countries. On the other hand, you won't find many Muslims who say that Mohammed was fallible.
 
How many Christians say that Christ is fallible?

I'm pretty sure that Flying Pig was referring to current leaders.
 
That's what kills me. If you want to cast religious asparagus, at least be consistent about it.
 
Christ wasn't some brown guy from the middle east

oh wait

Why do you bring up Christianity? What does that have to do with anything? We can talk Christianity if you like, but last time I checked this discussion was about Islam.
 
Why do you bring up Christianity? What does that have to do with anything? We can talk Christianity if you like, but last time I checked this discussion was about Islam.

Both are heretical strands of Judaism.
 
So? Next time we talk about sharks, will you randomly bring up jellyfish because both are aquatic animals?
 
So? Next time we talk about sharks, will you randomly bring up jellyfish because both are aquatic animals?

Yes, because one has a track record of incredible xenophobia and violence and the other tolerance and acceptance.

My people have been massacred, rounded up and immolated, expelled, converted at the sword, and razed by your pasty white asses. Not even 70 years ago your bloodthirsty race was gassing us too! Millions of bodies lay at the end of your sword, gun, and camps, and yet you're the one pointing out the flaws in other people?

Islam sheltered us when you decided to kick us out of our homes. When you barbarically murdered thousands of people (in what I can only assume due to its extremely long and storied history is a genetic inclination towards hatred) they welcomed us with open arms.

It's laughable to hear you whine and whinge about the horrors of Islamic human rights and its fascist nature (easily forgetting it was your forsaken people who invented it) and yet fail to look at the far, far worse history your people have committed. If it wasn't for our never ending graces you people would still be flinging mud at one another under authoritarian and murderous regimes. And yet, for all the democracy and pluralism we have bestowed upon you, it seems we failed to ingrain the common humanity shared in a multicultural society.

Instead, based on history I can only assume you are returning to your historical norm of shunning and killing the outsiders. Thank god my ancestors left your hell-hole of a home when they got the chance, and my heart goes to those moving to Europe in hope of a better life. They sure as hell aren't going to get it considering the people they're surrounded by.

Spoiler :
If you still haven't grasped it, isn't it wonderful when you blanketly apply mass history to people and hold them those same standards? Because one guy decided to blow crap up, it is suddenly an issue at the direct heart of his religion that lead him to do so? It was his culture that lead him to repress and kill, and not the man himself?

As a German/European, it's far too easy to apply the same flawed logic to you.
 
Yes, because one has a track record of incredible xenophobia and violence and the other tolerance and acceptance.

My people have been massacred, rounded up and immolated, expelled, converted at the sword, and razed by your pasty white asses. Not even 70 years ago your bloodthirsty race was gassing us too! Millions of bodies lay at the end of your sword, gun, and camps, and yet you're the one pointing out the flaws in other people?

Islam sheltered us when you decided to kick us out of our homes. When you barbarically murdered thousands of people (in what I can only assume due to its extremely long and storied history is a genetic inclination towards hatred) they welcomed us with open arms.

It's laughable to hear you whine and whinge about the horrors of Islamic human rights and its fascist nature (easily forgetting it was your forsaken people who invented it) and yet fail to look at the far, far worse history your people have committed. If it wasn't for our never ending graces you people would still be flinging mud at one another under authoritarian and murderous regimes. And yet, for all the democracy and pluralism we have bestowed upon you, it seems we failed to ingrain the common humanity shared in a multicultural society.

Instead, based on history I can only assume you are returning to your historical norm of shunning and killing the outsiders. Thank god my ancestors left your hell-hole of a home when they got the chance, and my heart goes to those moving to Europe in hope of a better life. They sure as hell aren't going to get it considering the people they're surrounded by.

Spoiler :
If you still haven't grasped it, isn't it wonderful when you blanketly apply mass history to people and hold them those same standards? Because one guy decided to blow crap up, it is suddenly an issue at the direct heart of his religion that lead him to do so? It was his culture that lead him to repress and kill, and not the man himself?

As a German/European, it's far too easy to apply the same flawed logic to you.

I'm annoyed when fellow Jews basically think 'Damn Europeans always persecuted us in the Middle Ages, Muslims were good'. For all intents and purposes, we are practically European, even if Israel isn't exactly in Europe geographically speaking. Judaism influenced Greek philosophy, we used Greek, Italians honour Israelite heroes and the landscape of European landscape of philosophy, arts and science simply would simply be unthinkable without Jews. Modern Jewry in turn would be unthinkable without Europe. When the French and Spanish conquered the Maghreb, they considered the local Jews to be their equals.

Simply put, there is too much crossover into Europe to deny we are European. Who denies this can be meaningfully and in an objective manner be called a Nazi and Nazis arguably caused more damage to Western civilisation than all homosexuals, Jews and Romani combined. Or Muslims for that matter.

Still, it doesn't change the fact that mass anti-semitic sentiment has been driven underground in Europe, because the motivators and causes of anti-semitic thought, chiefly Christianity and Nazism, are significantly less popular than they were in the past. Whereas Islam and the antisemitism that comes with it are as popular as ever. Certain Muslim nations have been more tolerant of Jews than certain European countries, though they were also more secular than many European nations at the time. Then again, secularism is a double-edged sword, since it also led to racial theories in the absence of religious scapegoats, as was the case with Germany.
 
Yes, because one has a track record of incredible xenophobia and violence and the other tolerance and acceptance.

My people have been massacred, rounded up and immolated, expelled, converted at the sword, and razed by your pasty white asses. Not even 70 years ago your bloodthirsty race was gassing us too! Millions of bodies lay at the end of your sword, gun, and camps, and yet you're the one pointing out the flaws in other people?

Islam sheltered us when you decided to kick us out of our homes. When you barbarically murdered thousands of people (in what I can only assume due to its extremely long and storied history is a genetic inclination towards hatred) they welcomed us with open arms.

It's laughable to hear you whine and whinge about the horrors of Islamic human rights and its fascist nature (easily forgetting it was your forsaken people who invented it) and yet fail to look at the far, far worse history your people have committed. If it wasn't for our never ending graces you people would still be flinging mud at one another under authoritarian and murderous regimes. And yet, for all the democracy and pluralism we have bestowed upon you, it seems we failed to ingrain the common humanity shared in a multicultural society.

Instead, based on history I can only assume you are returning to your historical norm of shunning and killing the outsiders. Thank god my ancestors left your hell-hole of a home when they got the chance, and my heart goes to those moving to Europe in hope of a better life. They sure as hell aren't going to get it considering the people they're surrounded by.

Spoiler :
If you still haven't grasped it, isn't it wonderful when you blanketly apply mass history to people and hold them those same standards? Because one guy decided to blow crap up, it is suddenly an issue at the direct heart of his religion that lead him to do so? It was his culture that lead him to repress and kill, and not the man himself?

As a German/European, it's far too easy to apply the same flawed logic to you.
Wow. This must be the silliest post I have ever seen in a forum. I thought for a bit how to respond, but there is so much wrong with it, I really wouldn't know where to start. Sorry, but someone else will have to take you by the hand and lead you out of this skewed and reprehensible worldview of yours.


Tovergieter said:
secularism is a double-edged sword, since it also led to racial theories in the absence of religious scapegoats, as was the case with Germany.
Secularism had nothing to do with the development of racial theories. National Socialism wasn't a secular ideology by any stretch of the term.
 
Secularism had nothing to do with the development of racial theories. National Socialism wasn't a secular ideology by any stretch of the term.

Really? So what divinity did Nazis worship?

This is all very interesting of course, but shall we get back to topic?
 
Italian fascism certainly was not secular - Mussolini tried to make Catholicism the one-and-only religion of Italy. Several of Hitler's religious ministers tried to integrate Nazism with Christianity (with Hitler as the new Messiah), and the government created an official, Protestant state church to whitewash over the uncomfortable difficulties of blending Christianity with Nazism, though it wasn't particularly successful. They also had ties with and tried to promote the slightly odder German Faith Movement, which worshipped the seasons, though their support of that was more a matter of weakening those religious groups that were not answerable to the state. That latter theme runs through quite a lot of German history.
 
Secularism had nothing to do with the development of racial theories. National Socialism wasn't a secular ideology by any stretch of the term.

National Socialism wasn't a secular ideology, thought that doesn't mean secularism didn't have anything to do with its rise. Secularism reduced the influence of Christianity, which was a central weltanschaung (hope I've spelled it correctly, my German is horrible) up to that point, creating a void that could be filled by political ideologies with religious overtones such as Nazism.

And that's the thing. In a non-secular society, religious minorities are a popular scapegoat. However, when a Jew becomes a Christian, he ceases to be a Jew - except in Spain. With the rise of secularism, Jews continued to be a scapegoat as their identity projected by their opponents was racialised so it could be independent of religion. This is why Karl Marx is identified as a Jew, despite being an Atheist with Christian parents. In a similar vein, Protestant countries were identified as racially Nordic and Catholic countries identified as being racially Celtic or Mediterranian.

Nowadays, racial theories are as descredited as non-secularism is.

Italian fascism certainly was not secular - Mussolini tried to make Catholicism the one-and-only religion of Italy. Several of Hitler's religious ministers tried to integrate Nazism with Christianity (with Hitler as the new Messiah), and the government created an official, Protestant state church to whitewash over the uncomfortable difficulties of blending Christianity with Nazism, though it wasn't particularly successful. They also had ties with and tried to promote the slightly odder German Faith Movement, which worshipped the seasons, though their support of that was more a matter of weakening those religious groups that were not answerable to the state. That latter theme runs through quite a lot of German history.

Mussolini was an opportunist: At first, he tried to stake common ground with Leftists by being Anticlerical. He was in fact a member of the Socialist party who initially wanted to implement Fascism using their party as vehicle. When that failed, but managed to attract the support of Right-Wing constituents, he became more favourable to Catholicism. When the Nazis arrived to the show, he implemented Antisemitic laws despite only a minority of Fascists being legit Antisemites at the time.
 
National Socialism wasn't a secular ideology, thought that doesn't mean secularism didn't have anything to do with its rise. Secularism reduced the influence of Christianity, which was a central weltanschaung (hope I've spelled it correctly, my German is horrible) up to that point, creating a void that could be filled by political ideologies with religious overtones such as Nazism.

I don't think it's that simple; religious world-views and 'national' ones had been in quite a murky coexistence since at least the Thirty Years' War, if not the reformation and even into Late Antiquity, where being 'Christian' or 'Pagan' was not simply a matter of philosophy. There is nothing in Christianity - or, I would argue, any other religion - that prevents it from being twisted to any political end you care to mention. The fact that several Buddhist groups in Thailand can fairly be described as 'terrorists' is a really good illustration of the point. You can't say that a Christian world-view is incompatible with feelings of national and racial supremacy (look at the Church of England's role in the expansion of the British Empire, or German protestantism, or Christianity in the expanding USA), or following a murderous dictator (after all, it was essentially a product of the Roman Empire), or even mass murder (witness the inquisition, the crusades, and so on). If you can have all three of those, I don't see why Nazism poses a problem.

Mussolini was an opportunist: At first, he tried to stake common ground with Leftists by being Anticlerical. He was in fact a member of the Socialist party who initially wanted to implement Fascism using their party as vehicle. When that failed, but managed to attract the support of Right-Wing constituents, he became more favourable to Catholicism. When the Nazis arrived to the show, he implemented Antisemitic laws despite only a minority of Fascists being legit Antisemites at the time.

OK, but that's a description of Mussolini, not fascism: whatever Mussolini's personal beliefs, he could not (by definition) change fascist doctrine to be incompatible with fascism, since he was the one writing it.
 
I don't think it's that simple; religious world-views and 'national' ones had been in quite a murky coexistence since at least the Thirty Years' War, if not the reformation and even into Late Antiquity, where being 'Christian' or 'Pagan' was not simply a matter of philosophy. There is nothing in Christianity - or, I would argue, any other religion - that prevents it from being twisted to any political end you care to mention. The fact that several Buddhist groups in Thailand can fairly be described as 'terrorists' is a really good illustration of the point. You can't say that a Christian world-view is incompatible with feelings of national and racial supremacy (look at the Church of England's role in the expansion of the British Empire, or German protestantism, or Christianity in the expanding USA), or following a murderous dictator (after all, it was essentially a product of the Roman Empire), or even mass murder (witness the inquisition, the crusades, and so on). If you can have all three of those, I don't see why Nazism poses a problem.

I don't dispute any of this. However, Nazism itself had religious elements which made it totalitarian. A non-secular society is characterised by complicated relations between religious and secular power. However, a secular society where non-secular notions are still influential may be prone to ideologies like Nazism and Weimar Germany can be characterised as such a society. So a partially secularised society is potentially more explosive than a completely religious or completely secular one.
 
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