Israel: Western or Middle-Eastern? Or Both?
- Thread starter Tahuti
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Lillefix
I'm serious. You can.
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I think there's a bit too much hatred an violence down there to describe it as a "nice" mix. At least for the time being. But that's just my opinion.
Quackers
The Frog
So which part of Israeli society is exclusively middle Eastern?
Lillefix
I'm serious. You can.
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The part concerning pork is definitely middle eastern.
Global north-south, not AmericanDon't be stupid.
Cultural love of heavy firepower and military service
Think the entire country was founded to support their religious beliefs
Paralyzing fear of darker skinned neighbors
Israel is Southern
Quackers
The Frog
Humus?
Jolly Rogerer
Prince
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Humus controls the Gaza strip.
plarq
Crazy forever
Hamas?
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
Not to mention, persecuting a segment of the population for merely following a different religion is becoming a much more popular western mindset at present.
Clearly, their own attempts at multiculturalism have failed. Most Israelis even refuse to learn the local language while insisting that the indigenous population learn their own religion-based language in their Arabic schools. They simply refuse to assimilate.
Israel is a western country slowly degrading into an eastern one.
It was started by a democratic/socialistic group of highly educated Europeans. The vast majority of them were atheists and they used the stories of the Old Testament mostly in a secular way for the purposes of building a national identity and the ethos of the fighting Jew, which was somewhat lacking for a couple thousand years.
Their ideology was based on Altneuland, The Federalist and Das Capital. They were white, they were European. Just like every other group of European settlers establishing a colony in the New World.
Growth, a far from perfect assimilation of eastern Jews, a certain influence from the surrounding Arab cultures - all are pushing Israel towards "easternization". It's a slow process that will hopefully be reversed.
Today Israel is democratic, remains richer than quite a few European countries despite infuriatingly low workforce participation rates and very high defense spending and produces much more technology per-capita that any other country. Most importantly, the dominant secular majority thinks itself western, acts like and therefore is one.
Walk the streets of Tel Aviv and the closest similarity to it, from my experience, is London. Western at first glance, but leave the very center, look deeper, and you will see the east showing up.
It was started by a democratic/socialistic group of highly educated Europeans. The vast majority of them were atheists and they used the stories of the Old Testament mostly in a secular way for the purposes of building a national identity and the ethos of the fighting Jew, which was somewhat lacking for a couple thousand years.
Their ideology was based on Altneuland, The Federalist and Das Capital. They were white, they were European. Just like every other group of European settlers establishing a colony in the New World.
Growth, a far from perfect assimilation of eastern Jews, a certain influence from the surrounding Arab cultures - all are pushing Israel towards "easternization". It's a slow process that will hopefully be reversed.
Today Israel is democratic, remains richer than quite a few European countries despite infuriatingly low workforce participation rates and very high defense spending and produces much more technology per-capita that any other country. Most importantly, the dominant secular majority thinks itself western, acts like and therefore is one.
Walk the streets of Tel Aviv and the closest similarity to it, from my experience, is London. Western at first glance, but leave the very center, look deeper, and you will see the east showing up.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
I don't think you are going to find very many Israelis in London physically attacking Christians, much less engaging in apartheid against Arabs.
Of course I won't. Britain was a paragon of liberty for the native people of the world for many centuries, giving up on the enlightened control of these people completely voluntarily and with a complete compensation.
Anyway, just wait for a decade or two. Europe became enlightened after killing all it's non-European subjects. Now, when the alien is among you again, it is turning xenophobic once more.
Yes.
Exactly who depends on which time frame you look at. One can include the pagans, Christianized with words but also with swords. One can also include the Iberian Muslims, who underwent forced conversion or exile or death after the Reconquista.
And as always, there are the Jews.
Tahuti
Writing Deity
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You could also say the Pagans were the true Europeans with a European creed and they were overtaken by Christianity.
Well nevertheless, wasn't it due to the Enlightenment, that European Jewry - with certain exceptions applying - were pretty much considered by themselves and the outside as part of the nationality their country, with their Jewish identity mostly seen as a religious identity (alongside Catholic, Protestant etc.)?
This was probably especially true in the USA, Britain and ironically also in Germany and Italy.
It was pretty much with the emergence of the Dollstosslegende and the Nazis that virulent Anti-Semitism reappeared, in Germany at least. Most of Europe ultimately followed due to Nazi-occupation.
Well nevertheless, wasn't it due to the Enlightenment, that European Jewry - with certain exceptions applying - were pretty much considered by themselves and the outside as part of the nationality their country, with their Jewish identity mostly seen as a religious identity (alongside Catholic, Protestant etc.)?
This was probably especially true in the USA, Britain and ironically also in Germany and Italy.
It was pretty much with the emergence of the Dollstosslegende and the Nazis that virulent Anti-Semitism reappeared, in Germany at least. Most of Europe ultimately followed due to Nazi-occupation.
Allow me to take a small step back.
To better understand these matters in my opinion you should stop thinking like an American/European and think a bit like a Jew.
You speak of the Enlightenment and the Holocaust and what you say is correct, but you also speak from the perspective of decades which turn into centuries. If you want to understand Jews and Israel you have to think in the perspective of centuries which turn into millenia.
A few decades of enlightenment are nothing compared to thousands of years of persecutions, exiles and pogroms. The debate on Jewish political assimilation into another country while retaining Jewish religious identity had a long white beard while Rome was still a republic contained to Italy.
GoodSarmatian
Jokerfied Western Male
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You can be something else that is 60% one and 40% other.
Well, if mean some general military-political affinities, then they are more exclusive and Israel is clearly "Western" as "non-Western".
If you are talking about cultural affinities, then blending can occur and is arguable expected. Israel is somewhat in-between the West and the Middle East, and like Eli said, has moved from the West at the founding and slowly moving towards the East with time.
nivi
Call me Ishmael
I don't want to get into the sarcastic notion in your post, but the least you could do is get your facts straight, Arabic is taught in (jewish) schools, sure the population does poorly, but only as poorly as in maths for example.
