JFC-3: Ping Pong

Masonry to open up Great Light? Sounds good.
Construction for Great Wall? Sounds good.
Calendar for plantations for +4 happy, pop 7 cities, sounds very good.

I'd go for calendar before construction but I don't know how likely we would be to lose GWall or how bad the barbs can get on Emperor. Given the beaker costs on emperor I'd rather get calendar and rely on the Myriads to replace units lost to barbs. But I'm a still a novice in RFC...
 
Yes sounds good, as long as we don't get mugged by barbs...! I suspect I was being overly paranoid :lol:

Seriously though, Great Wall would be great if we can nab it, but I would have thought we can fight off the barbs.
 
I think the cost of fighting barbs in hammers, lost units, and unit upkeep make it worth it to make the Great Wall a priority. I forget when the first barbs appear. At our current research rate we would have Construction in 33 turns.

Of the victories we're allowed (cultural is prohibited) I think space is easiest. I wouldn't even know how to approach domination or diplomatic.

For a space victory I think we want these 6 cities for sure. The one in the mountains could be 2S and the one in Australia could be 1S. If you buy that and add 1-3 cities in Korea and Manchuria, that leaves leaves 1-3 cities to place.
jfc3-2-1.jpg


Here's Manchuria, with a Corn that appears later and the Mongol spawn area. Some dotmaps:
* With Japan, on the Rice and 1E of the Wheat. Raze Kyoto and keep Matsuyama 2S of Kyoto
* Without Japan, Seoul and Corn/Pigs/Wheat, 1S, 2S, or SE of the Corn. Optionally add a city NNNW of the Corn.
* Without Japan, 1N of the Fish (on the Pigs) and 2N of the other Pigs
I don't love Seoul, partly because it has no fresh water, but it's fine, and it's cheap to capture if we want to do other things like pursue wonders. A settler costs the same as the Great Lighthouse, for example. If we want it, we should be sure to have a unit 2 tiles away when it appears.
jfc3-2-2.jpg


2-3 cities in Japan would be great cities with great resources: Silver, Crabs, and eventually Whales. Japan spawns on turn 88, so we don't have time to destroy it immediately, but I think if we focus now, we could build something like 2 Galleys, 2 Cats, and 6 Axes and take it down before it builds many more units. That would put the Great Wall at some risk and probably make the Great Lighthouse impossible, but I think now is the time when our military and production capability will best outstrip Japan's. Or we could do it at Engineering or Gunpowder.

On the other hand, we could settle Sydney to get Crabs and Silver, as well as Sheep. The cities won't be quite as good, but it costs fewer hammers to acquire, is more stable with no risk of a respawn, and we can still get most of the resources. 5 heartland cities, 2 Manchurian, and 2 Australian leaves 1, which could be in northern Manchuria, New Zealand, or Jakarta. If we settle Manchuria and go light on military (like with the Great Wall) we'll probably get attacked by Japan, but you never know.

On Emperor I find it helpful to interfere with the leading civs like Germany and England. But if we turtle in China I don't think there will be much we can do. We'll be at the mercy of our own economic development and will have to squeeze every last bit out of it.

I think we should go after the Internet. It's hard even for strong a civ to get it, but I doubt we can win without it. If I'm right, this game is really a race to the Internet.

I suggest we think about what we want to do with cottages. I'm not a fan of running cottages without Medicine or at least Emancipation because of how drastically the plague downgrades them.

An interesting thing about Stonehenge is that we don't ever have to research Democracy. If we emphasize specialists and run Representation we could also skip Liberalism and probably Biology and Medicine. Every tech we skip helps. We could also research Constitution before Guilds, Banking, or Education (unless we bulb Education, then Printing Press) in order to win the Taj and get Representation earlier.

Even if we emphasize specialists, it might still pay to run Bureaucracy and cottage Beijing (Trading Company, maybe Opera House). Bureaucracy would also let us skip Feudalism until after Constitution. But Vassalage might still beat it, since units will cost a lot with inflation. It might also pay to cottage Macau, with the Stock Market and costs that force the science slider low.

Alternatively if we cottage spam, we could try to run for Liberalism instead of Constitution. Plagues would still wipe out our +2C Towns, but we could switch to Emancipation and make that a little less devastating.

If we don't go for Liberalism, or maybe even if we do, I suggest researching Meditation and Aesthetics after Calendar and trying to hook up Gold and building the Shwedagon for Free Religion. Running Confucianism might help with Japan or Mongolia, but it would hurt with everyone else, and I think we should pursue all the trading we can. Since we have Marble we might also get the Parthenon or the Great Library, but the Great Library can fall very early to Greece.

On the other hand, I think going from 3 happy to 4 makes switching to Confucianism right now worth it. We might still get the Shwedagon and be able to switch to FR without changing religions.

Thinking about other goals we could pursue, I don't think the conquerors event would do much for us. It would boost our power rating, but we can get the Aztec resources without it. If we also got Astronomy early, we could settle great American cities in place of good Australian ones, but then we would still need to go to Australia or southeast Africa for Gems. So on the whole I'm not sure I like the idea of pursuing the new world.
 
Jet: I can tell that you've been thinking about this (and I guess you've played RFC before). Its a lot to digest in one go but I'm glad there's a coherent strategy.

I'd assume than east asia is our 'natural' home and don't know if we'd get extra instability from settling too far away. Do Wonders give stability? If so, is it a temporary or a permanent thing?

Would it be an option for Beijing to focus on units, copper city to focus on Glight and third city to run specialists?
 
I don't want to dictate anything, though.

There's a stability penalty for each land tile owned outside this colored area, but the first 32 such tiles are free.
China.jpg

Reference.
Losing units in a war incurs a stability penalty. Owning cities in any other civ's homeland incurs a stability penalty. All dead civs have a chance to resurrect after Nationalism, and if you own cities in their homeland, you can lose the cities if that happens.

The guide says that Wonders give permanent stability.

If we want to attack Japan soon then I think all three cities should build units. Otherwise maybe an Axeman or two, but my feeling is we should put all our eggs into the Great Wall. You automatically win the first 3 fights against barbs.
 
It's hard to decide on cities as there are so many good ones....

I don't like the North Aussie city, tbqh. Gems are good and doublers, but we already have 6 happiness resources and cheap units for HR. I've always been a fan of Jakarta, as it can run tons and tons of specialists but it forces us to run slavery for a long time.

I think we should get Tokyo (1E of Pigs). That gets us the Silver which as same as gems hapiness wise.

The on pigs city near Korea is one I like, but 2N? Not so much.

My votes for cities: the 6 you mapped in China, Tokyo, Pigshan, then Maybe go for Denver/Cahokia? Jakarta? Angkor even? Yeuch.
 
Would you get Gems and Aluminum elsewhere, or do without?

Jakarta could be workshopped. We don't need any of the resources for our own use.

For the reasons I gave, I'm not convinced about attacking Japan. I'm open to arguments but I probably won't start a buildup in my turnset unless there's a strong consensus in favor of it.
 
Wow, very comprehensive write up Jet! Will probably take a while to digest ;)

Some initial thoughts though:

City placement: The six initials look fine, and we can decide on exact placement nearer the time. Depending on when we settle the SW one we may need to deal with Pagan - I don't know when it spawns. I like Seoul as a free city - I think we should take it. Jayakarta is always a great commerce city.

The Japanese Question: Personally, I prefer letting them keep their isolated island. Australia has reasonable cities, and the stability hit from occupying Japan could prove fatal. Our economy rating will likely tank so we need all the stability help we can get. Plus, we might be able to steal some techs from them later.

Wonders: World Wonders, at least, definitely give permanent stability points that boost the Cities rating - sgrig's Finance Advisor patch is very useful for helping see how we are doing in each of the categories. Grabbing as many wonders as possible is always a great idea - another reason to avoid Japan.

Cottages: A good point regarding the plague. I'm really not sure the best tactic - I assume if we don't cottage up then we'll be farming everywhere? My main worry with that is how that might effect our economy rating, but that's pretty mysterious as it is. One final point - it is possible to avoid plague with an isolated civ and closed borders if we're lucky; it's definitely happened to me before.
 
Lurker's comment:

You definitely do not want to miss the Great Wall (unfortunately you may already be too late simply because you have 30+ turns to go and no stone around). Your strongest unit (spearman) at this time will not be enough for the 4n (n being anywhere from 6-8 for monarch) horse archers that will come around 1AD, and Engineering is far away.

Japan will declare war sooner or later (even if they have Confucianism), but keeping them alive will definitely make your research costs lower. Keeping a trireme around just in case will prevent loss of workboats. You can always wipe them out later.

Jayakarta and Australia are "white" which means they cost more to colonize as opposed to the New World. However, in emperor 3000 BC it is almost impossible to colonize the New World because the drain on your economy is so great (not even a granary to start with, and your workers are much slower compared to European ones). E.g. it takes 4 of your workers to chop a tree in 1 turn while it takes 3 for other civs to do so. So overall, I would favor Jayakarta and Australia where there is uranium and aluminum.

The point about the Internet can't be emphasized enough--all space race victories depend on it, even in Monarch.
 
I assume if we don't cottage up then we'll be farming everywhere? My main worry with that is how that might effect our economy rating, but that's pretty mysterious as it is.
Since we're in Caste System rather than Slavery I think it would be better in most cases to workshop them or leave them forested, and not necessarily work them, especially not before Guilds. Just working food, plantations, and mines could fill our health and happy caps for a while, and would still support a bunch of scientists since food resources are abundant in China. It would probably be bad for the economy rating. Food does contribute to it but I think less than commerce. The calculations are in updateBaseStability() in Stability.py if you roll like that. There were complaints in the forum about specialists not contributing to the economy rating. The complaints died off, but unfortunately I don't think that was because the mod actually changed.

it is possible to avoid plague with an isolated civ and closed borders if we're lucky; it's definitely happened to me before
Hmmmm.
 
We'd save a couple of turns of research by having two cities running scientists while third builds Glight.

So occupying Japan is not such a good idea because of long term instability while Korea (Manchuria perhaps around the wheat/pigs/iron), Jakarta (wherever that is) and Australia are ok(ish).

Regarding plague and closed/open borders. Plagues tends to occur in certain eras (600ad, 1400ad). If you isolate yourself (i.e. close borders) during the plague years and then reopen borders after the plague years do you avoid plague or just postpone it?
 

:rotfl:

Yeah, not too surprised at this reaction. I should note that it's *very very very* rare and not to be relied upon, but I'm sure it's happened to me.

pigswill: Avoid, not postpone. But, yeah... see above.

I think we should give the Great Wall a try, even though I don't necessarily agree with AP that Spears can't handle the HAs (I certainly never saw that many in my tester game, and I played much farther than 1AD).
 
I think we should give the Great Wall a try, even though I don't necessarily agree with AP that Spears can't handle the HAs (I certainly never saw that many in my tester game, and I played much farther than 1AD).

Yes, you can build enough spears (about 6-7 in your northern cities, but it's the pillaging that makes it really hard to manage (besides knocking your economy and stability down). You can still try for Construction/Great Wall, maybe you'll get lucky and even build the Colosseum (the AI likes that first).
 
Played 11 turns and suggest we all do the same to make the turnsets end on round turn numbers.

Pursued GLH + GW. Adopted Confucianism for the +20-25% happy. Ideally I would have run max scientists in all cities until Construction, but we had unimproved food tiles and spare happy, so I concentrated on growth instead.

Lost the Library in Beijing to a hurricane. Beijing built a Worker while we researched Masonry, then the GLH, due in 2 turns.

Asoka opened borders despite the religion diplo penalty. I'd like to build a boat in Macau to open trade routes to him, but Macau had a half-complete Library and Barracks which I thought should be finished before the hammers decay. Macau started with 3 Work Boats for our own use.

Hangzhou just sat and grew while putting a few hammers into its Library.

Finished chop mining the hill near Macau.
Improved the Rice near Hangzhou.
Chopped the grass and the grass silk by Beijing.
Started roading the plains hill forest near Beijing so that it can be more easily chop mined and the hammers put to the Great Wall. (That's not really a good reason to road it, though.) I think its other forests should be left alone, or maybe chopped at the very end of the Great Wall, so that it can stagnate at size 5 on 16-17 hammers.

Persia and Rome spawned.

26 turns to Construction.
 

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Looks good Jet, except for losing our library [pissed]

Probably best to get TGL in then hire scientists in Beijing - we should shave a lot of turns off Construction at that point. Finishing builds in Macau seems fine, I'm not sure how long hammer decay takes to kick in. Perhaps Hangzhou would be a better spot for the Maoi Statues anyway?
 
Quotey, you're up and it's been 24 hours.
 
Turn 0 (88)

Everything's good.

Turn 1 (89)

(IT)

Japan is born.

tglnn9.jpg


Meet Japan, gift them fish.

Turn 15 (103)

Sorry for playing extra turns but I wanted to do at least something.

Construction completes and I switch to TGW and complete a chop.

Also, instructions for researching: Keep at 0% science until we have just enough gold to complete a tech at 100%. We lose at least 2bpt by not doing this which is lots with these costs...
 

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There are some oldish claims by Whitefire in the RFC subforum that spending wealth on the sliders hurts your stability, but from my reading of Stability.py I think it's not true.
 
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