Jill Stein for President

What she said, as quoted, was true and entirely reasonable. In fact it was also incompatible with any reasonable belief in such a link, only unreasonable ones. So if anyone comes away from that thinking their belief in such a link has been validated, that's entirely on them.

No, what she said is not reasonable. Presenting something as if there is still an open scientific question where none exists is totally unreasonable. Of course it's on the anti-vaxxers for taking it that way, but that's the whole point. Jill Stein knows how they'll react and is encouraging it. These are people that will feel emboldened to fight against vaccinations, and validating them makes them more likely to succeed. That is not a good thing. The fact that she is a medical doctor and knows her opinion carries additional weight only makes it more reprehensible.

@Gary - Pandering to people like anti-vaxxers and climate change deniers is not harmless by any means. Pandering in general is distasteful, but pandering to people whose views threaten our planet and our public health is a whole different level.
 
QFT, especially the bolded. Bad things happen because most people either do not know or do not care that their choices can affect large numbers of people they'll never meet. No one ordinary citizen caused economic crises and world wars any more than any one snowflake causes an avalanche, but they contribute all the same, and it adds up.
this is making me think of that hilarious Crankshaft storyline where Crankshaft forgot to vote for his friend who was running for mayor and the vote tied so they decided by coin flip and Crankshaft picked for his friend and he picked wrong so he lost his friend the election twice over

EDIT: oh and since Crankshaft was Ralph's campaign manager I guess that makes three times

the misery of Funkyverse characters will never stop being unintentionally funny
 
A better analog than evidence for or against the divine would be someone who treats evolution as an open question.
 
A better analog than evidence for or against the divine would be someone who treats evolution as an open question.

"I know of no evidence that would suggest that evolution does not take place or is not a natural phenomenon" - yep, still an entirely reasonable statement to make.

In fact I might go as far as say that it could well be the most honest and truthful statement I've ever heard a politician make frankly.
 
@Gary - Pandering to people like anti-vaxxers and climate change deniers is not harmless by any means. Pandering in general is distasteful, but pandering to people whose views threaten our planet and our public health is a whole different level.

For what it's worth, Stein is pretty much the opposite of a climate change denier. She believes we need to get off dependence on fossil fuels for the double benefit of helping the climate and keeping us out of involvement in the Middle East.

I don't know to what extent she either supports or not an anti-vaccine movement but here is a snippet from a Washington Post article on the topic:

"I think there’s no question that vaccines have been absolutely critical in ridding us of the scourge of many diseases — smallpox, polio, etc. So vaccines are an invaluable medication," Stein said. "Like any medication, they also should be — what shall we say? -- approved by a regulatory board that people can trust. And I think right now, that is the problem. That people do not trust a Food and Drug Administration, or even the CDC for that matter, where corporate influence and the pharmaceutical industry has a lot of influence."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...stein-on-vaccines-people-have-real-questions/

Other than the vaccine controversy, do you have other reasons not to vote for Stein?

Also, serious question: Who would be a better candidate to vote for and why?
 
Apparently we live in an age where intellectual honesty is a bad thing? :confused:
What she is doing is the exact opposite of intellectual honesty. She is a medical professional, she knows the current state of research on the relationship between vaccinations and autism. Sure, "I am not aware of any evidence that supports a relationship" is a true statement, but so is "Because the overwhelming majority of peer reviewed studies shows no link between vaccinations and autism, the scientific consensus is that vaccination does not cause autism". She could have given either response, but decided to give the first one. You have to ask yourself why.

"Is this statement literally true or false" is a very low bar to evaluate the honesty of a politician. Which things they decide not to say, in the context of what some of their voters blocks do or do not like to hear is an important additional aspect.
 
What she is doing is the exact opposite of intellectual honesty. She is a medical professional, she knows the current state of research on the relationship between vaccinations and autism. Sure, "I am not aware of any evidence that supports a relationship" is a true statement, but so is "Because the overwhelming majority of peer reviewed studies shows no link between vaccinations and autism, the scientific consensus is that vaccination does not cause autism". She could have given either response, but decided to give the first one. You have to ask yourself why.

"Is this statement literally true or false" is a very low bar to evaluate the honesty of a politician. Which things they decide not to say, in the context of what some of their voters blocks do or do not like to hear is an important additional aspect.

So who would be a better choice to vote for then? So far I see one arguably legitimate controversy over Stein. Are there others?
 
She could have given either response, but decided to give the first one. You have to ask yourself why.

Because it trips off the tongue easier in a live interview situation? To be honest you can even read your second option as an attempt to avoid the question if you're inclined to do so, almost more than the first option. She was asked about her opinion on the matter, but your answer merely states what the scientific consensus is and would speak nothing to her opinion whatsoever, so it looks like avoidance. At least in the answer she actually gave she's talking about what she personally knows (or doesn't know), which is more personal.
 
I think on the vaccine thing she reacted the way she did is that because it was a compound question her issue may actually have been with the pacing for example she may favour a slower pace like the NHS which is a far cry from vaccines are bad.
 
I don't really understand any case for Stein on her specific merits, rather than just being "not the other people". She has a long history of running for elected office, including for small offices in some of the most progressive places in the country, and has accomplished virtually nothing. She's never governed. I'm not sure if she's ever run anything other than a relatively small private practice?

A message of removing money from politics and fighting for the enviroment is fine, but absent any experience, a record of anybody ever really being receptive to her message, or a legislative support structure if she was actually elected...what's the point?

The fact that she's on the ballot again speaks more to the Green's crappy candidate recruitment, IMO.
 
Other than the vaccine controversy, do you have other reasons not to vote for Stein?

Also, serious question: Who would be a better candidate to vote for and why?

My main reason why I wouldn't vote for her isn't actually the vaccine thing. I find that disappointing because our country ought to be more trusting of science, but if that was my only quibble, it'd be a minor one.

It's because we're voting for president, and I see nothing in her resume or personal history which makes me think she's capable of doing the job. She doesn't have the background for it. It requires an awfully wide range of knowledge to do effectively. I frankly don't think it does third parties any good to run obviously unqualified candidates for president, and I would not want to support any such party that does so. I realize there is also a values judgment, that people want to see a president in office that reflects their values, and I am sympathetic to people wanting the person they vote for to represent their values.

But the sort of "basic competency" test is to me an overriding concern. The presidency is a 24/7 job that you don't get a break from, and it carries with it an awful lot of pressure. I don't think anything can quite prepare a person for the job, but as an introductory issue I like to know that someone I'm voting for will have a reasonable chance, based on their history, of being able to handle it. I couldn't vote for someone if they appeared not to be up to the task.
 
I don't really understand any case for Stein on her specific merits, rather than just being "not the other people". She has a long history of running for elected office, including for small offices in some of the most progressive places in the country, and has accomplished virtually nothing. She's never governed. I'm not sure if she's ever run anything other than a relatively small private practice?

A message of removing money from politics and fighting for the enviroment is fine, but absent any experience, a record of anybody ever really being receptive to her message, or a legislative support structure if she was actually elected...what's the point?

The fact that she's on the ballot again speaks more to the Green's crappy candidate recruitment, IMO.

Is there a legitimate reason to vote for Clinton, other than she's not Trump? Sure she has experience but it seems to have been checkered by a lot of bad moves.

Maybe this will help clarify what the case is for the Greens.

1. A vote for the Greens may ultimately amount to a vote for more diversity in our national discussion of values and where we want to be headed as a country.

2. If it were the case that she somehow gained office I'm not so sure I wouldn't trust her judgment more than Clinton's or Trump's. She seems to have her heart in the right place. (Or perhaps at the very least, she seems to have a "heart".)

BELATED EDIT: And to clarify further, so far my position (which is stated in the OP) is that a vote for Jill Stein is the better vote, if one does NOT live in a state with a narrow margin between Trump and Clinton. If one does live in a such a state with a narrow margin then perhaps it is arguable that they should vote for Clinton.
 
My main reason why I wouldn't vote for her isn't actually the vaccine thing. I find that disappointing because our country ought to be more trusting of science, but if that was my only quibble, it'd be a minor one.

It's because we're voting for president, and I see nothing in her resume or personal history which makes me think she's capable of doing the job. She doesn't have the background for it. It requires an awfully wide range of knowledge to do effectively. I frankly don't think it does third parties any good to run obviously unqualified candidates for president, and I would not want to support any such party that does so. I realize there is also a values judgment, that people want to see a president in office that reflects their values, and I am sympathetic to people wanting the person they vote for to represent their values.

But the sort of "basic competency" test is to me an overriding concern. The presidency is a 24/7 job that you don't get a break from, and it carries with it an awful lot of pressure. I don't think anything can quite prepare a person for the job, but as an introductory issue I like to know that someone I'm voting for will have a reasonable chance, based on their history, of being able to handle it. I couldn't vote for someone if they appeared not to be up to the task.

So regardless of what a candidate stands for, we should vote for them if they have more experience in office?
 
So regardless of what a candidate stands for, we should vote for them if they have more experience in office?
That's not what dt said, like, at all.
 
I took him/her to be implying that Clinton is the better choice because she has more experience. No? :confused:
No, he's saying that Stein is not a good candidate because she has no experience, in anything, of any relevancy to the government. She is only slightly more prepared for the job of president than I am, and much less prepared than Johnson, Clinton, or maybe even Trump.
 
No, he's saying that Stein is not a good candidate because she has no experience, in anything, of any relevancy to the government. She is only slightly more prepared for the job of president than I am, and much less prepared than Johnson, Clinton, or maybe even Trump.

Which sort of brings us back to the question I asked, which you seem to think is irrelevant. Does it matter what "experience" a candidate has if they have a bad track record? If Mussolini had more experience than Mother Theresa as President, should we prefer Mussolini over Mother Theresa as President (given such options)?
 
No, he's saying that Stein is not a good candidate because she has no experience, in anything, of any relevancy to the government. She is only slightly more prepared for the job of president than I am, and much less prepared than Johnson, Clinton, or maybe even Trump.

Exactly, and the fact that the discussion then immediately then turns to Clinton kind of proves my point. It's not very hard to argue for a more left version of a mainstream Democrat running for office...but we don't vote and elect parties in the abstract, we select individuals. And the individual case for Stein, in my mind, is lacking.

We know that Stein was a highly educated and successful doctor. We know she did some political activism, helped close down some dirty power plants and (unsuccessfully) fought for campaign finance reform, and then has basically spent the last decade plus running for stuff and losing.

If somebody who is relatively well known (like Stein), and has political positions like Stein, and can't win 33% of the vote for a state house seat in Massachusetts, where can they win? Why should we trust their powers of persuasion, knowing they'll need them as an elected officeholder? What are they seeing that we, nationally, do not?

I don't think that elected office experience should be the sole barometer in candidate quality. Certainly, one could argue that even in the case of Clinton, it is not universally a positive. But experience, generally, is, or at least should be, important....if not in elected office, than in crafting policy, or in management, or in running an organization, or in creating some sense of accomplishment.

Otherwise, we are left just to personalities. And then even here, perhaps we would be found wanting. Surely there is a more accomplished left-of-left candidate that could be trotted out, especially one who could have more credibility outside of the educated whites community
 
Surely there is a more accomplished left-of-left candidate that could be trotted out, especially one who could have more credibility outside of the educated whites community

I don't know of any such alternative in the race at the moment. I outlined my rationale for voting for Stein. I see no point in repeating it.
 
I don't know of any such alternative in the race at the moment. I outlined my rationale for voting for Stein. I see no point in repeating it.

If a protest vote means that much to you, you could always abstain from voting for president altogether (i.e. leave that part of the ballot blank) or write in literally anybody else. I'm not saying Stein is bad because I think protest votes in general are bad - indeed as a resident of a state that will assuredly vote Clinton I'm planning on writing in someone else myself - rather I'm saying Stein herself is not an optimal candidate, and if you're going to go through the full rigmarole of using your ballot to voice your dissatisfaction with the 2-party system, then why not use your vote to choose someone who doesn't entertain crackpot theories and has zero qualifications for the office.
 
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