Jordan Peterson

[Hygro]

this is pretty off base and lazy

pointing out these hypocrisies corners people's real intentions behind complaining about the things (mostly black) people do

it absolutely does

No, you already take as given their racism so nothing is proved to you or them.

 

[miaasma]

No, you already take as given their racism so nothing is proved to you or them.

oh, i see

it must be convenient to just presume people's intentions so as to discredit the validity of whatever they're saying, even if it makes perfect coherent sense

 

[Berzerker]

Number one, I refuse to believe that you are too stupid to see this for yourself.

Number two, if you actually are, it has already been explained.

So I'm guessing this is just more of your "see how many stupid questions I can ask before someone says something angrily" game.

That didn't take long... I didn't even get an answer before you jumped in to tell me it was already answered. So where was this explained?

 

[metalhead]

It's definitely real. It is fundamentally racist discourse. I remember it from school, and not only black kids would say things like that either.

Ah. I've read opinions from others who anecdotally did not see or hear anything of the kind. It makes more sense coming from a place of white people asserting superiority. Which isn't to say Black kids wouldn't participate in it; as a hurtful way to bully in that atmosphere it certainly makes sense. But in that case it has been been said appropriated from racist white people for maximum hurtfulness.

I guess the point I would hope isn't lost in the details is that it isn't a phenomenon particular to Black youth to harass other youth who try to do well in school, however it ultimately manifests. I'd also note that taking the actions of a few ignorant kids as representative of "Black culture" is itself rather racist reductivism.

 

[Lexicus]

I guess the point I would hope isn't lost in the details is that it isn't a phenomenon particular to Black youth to harass other youth who try to do well in school, however it ultimately manifests. I'd also note that taking the actions of a few ignorant kids as representative of "Black culture" is itself rather racist reductivism.

References to "black culture" are tricky indeed. In the mouths of racists it frequently is just an acceptable way to say "black people".

 

[Berzerker]

yes, because black culture wouldn't exist without them

 

[inthesomeday]

Hm... would it?

History question: do you guys think enslaved Africans developed a single unified cultural identity among themselves (black culture) before or after they were assigned one by the perception of Europeans (“black people”)?

 

[Kyriakos]

Hm... would it?

History question: do you guys think enslaved Africans developed a single unified cultural identity among themselves (black culture) before or after they were assigned one by the perception of Europeans (“black people”)?

I think that in any case of a partly (or more) ghetto-ised population, you will have a culture distinct from the rest. Similar to pre ww2 jewish culture in Europe, eg Prague or polish territories.

The issue of US 'race' relations is complicated, and maybe unique (due to scale, but also history, including not just slavery past for black people but also the fact that the US was built on driving out native populations; you don't really have that in most of Europe).

I think that it is going to be difficult to make 'race' relations smoother. Yet i have to suppose that they can be a lot better than now.

 

[Миханя]

Why is it racist?

Number one, I refuse to believe that you are too stupid to see this for yourself.

Reminds me of this quote by the French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre ("Anti-Semite and Jew" book):

Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past. It is not that they are afraid of being convinced. They fear only to appear ridiculous or to prejudice by their embarrassment their hope of winning over some third person to their side.

 

[Миханя]

Which isn't very honest or thorough: https://www.americanthinker.com/art...driving_his_critics_to_desperate_attacks.html

The author of the article you posted goes on a rant to attack the person who wrote the Current Affairs article for critiquing Jordan Peterson, but isn't he doing exactly the same thing he is criticizing? That's also not honest or thorough, isn't it? English is not my first language, but it seems that the author of this article is pretty "triggered" (am I using it right?).

And the comments make me think that maybe Jordan Peterson is leading... a cult?

And you think no black people ever burned the flag before 2016? The problem was that they were using their huge audiences to broadcast their disrespect.

Considering how the USA has treated African Americans for centuries — slavery, segregation, police killings, mass incarceration — it would be a very logical step for them to burn all American flags out there. For example, Jews burned the Third Reich flags, and Wagner isn't played in Israel, and I think that makes perfect sense. The fact that African Americans choose to respectfully "disrespect" the American flag shows their dignity and good attitude, in my opinion.

Do you live in the USA, by the way? Just curious.

 

[Hygro]

Plot twist: Jordan Peterson becomes Kanye's counselor.

 

[Traitorfish]

There’s no hypocrisy by conservatives being pro flag and wearing flag apparel because they don’t subscribe to military flag rules, just like you guys don’t.

There's surely some space between observing military flag rules to their fullest extent, and not wearing the flag as underpants.

Mouthwash observe that many right-wing Americans view the flag as "sacred", and it's at least true that they imagine that they view the flag as sacred. But, whether or not a specific code of ritual is attached to the handling of sacred objects, one would expect a certain reverence, a certain solemnity, that doesn't appear to be attached to the US flag or to the image of the flag in day-to-day life. Whatever exactly "pro-flag" means, the sticking point is the belief that they can impose an artificial reverence when as it suits them, one that is not generally observed by them or anybody else in civilian life.

 

[Mouthwash]

What message is conveyed by stashing your meat and two veg in the flag? What implications does that have vis a vis the sanctity of Old Glory?

Has this been done on live TV?

This is racist. Like, really racist man.

Okay, so if someone ascribes poor socioeconomic outcomes in Appalachia to 'Borderer culture,' is he also being racist? Because he's doing that on the exact same logical grounds.

(Also: Jay-z agrees with me, so he must also be a white supremacist.)

Have you guys never heard of black people looking down on successful or trying-to-be-successful black people, particularly the act of calling it "acting white"? It's a real phenomenon and it's not racist to point it out.

I'm not talking about Ebonics or rap music. I mean their beliefs about marriage, child-rearing, religion... that's as much a part of culture as anything else.

Mouthwash observe that many right-wing Americans view the flag as "sacred", and it's at least true that they imagine that they view the flag as sacred. But, whether or not a specific code of ritual is attached to the handling of sacred objects, one would expect a certain reverence, a certain solemnity, that doesn't appear to be attached to the US flag or to the image of the flag in day-to-day life. Whatever exactly "pro-flag" means, the sticking point is the belief that they can impose an artificial reverence when as it suits them, one that is not generally observed by them or anybody else in civilian life.

So in the absence of evidence, you're just going to assume they're doing it because they don't like black people. Rigorous thinker, you are.

 

[miaasma]

I'm not talking about Ebonics or rap music. I mean their beliefs about marriage, child-rearing, religion... that's as much a part of culture as anything else.

can you tell me what you believe "white culture" has to say about marriage, child-rearing and religion?

 

[Lexicus]

History question: do you guys think enslaved Africans developed a single unified cultural identity among themselves (black culture) before or after they were assigned one by the perception of Europeans (“black people”)?

I think these processes happened more or less simultaneously. Remember, it took some time before the category "black people" took on the sort of significance it ended up having in the US. It wasn't really until the 18th century that this had been solidified in law.

And the comments make me think that maybe Jordan Peterson is leading... a cult?

Going by overwrought Facebook comments you'd think a lot of strange things

(due to scale, but also history, including not just slavery past for black people but also the fact that the US was built on driving out native populations; you don't really have that in most of Europe).

??? Of course you do, just a lot further back in time...

So in the absence of evidence, you're just going to assume they're doing it because they don't like black people. Rigorous thinker, you are.

His whole point is that there is not absence of evidence. They are basically saying "I don't like black people, but I'm going to pretend as if this is really about the flag." It isn't exactly difficult to pick up on this, it's barely even subtext.

 

[metalhead]

Okay, so if someone ascribes poor socioeconomic outcomes in Appalachia to 'Borderer culture,' is he also being racist? Because he's doing that on the exact same logical grounds.

(Also: Jay-z agrees with me, so he must also be a white supremacist.)

JayZ is not saying what you're saying. He is making a thoughtful critique that accounts for centuries of African-American life experience. He's trying to teach young Black people how to build wealth for themselves.

You're just making ignorant assumptions about people based on their race. Not the same thing at all.

 

[Traitorfish]

Has this been done on live TV?

I'm not sure what difference you think this specific qualification would make- I suspect it's your usual tactic of "ask a question with no answer, declare victory"- but apparently yes, it has. Twice. Josh Reddick does not appear to have faced any consequences as a result of rubbing his nuts on the flag, because I guess it turns out that Americans don't actually feel that strongly about their flag or representations of their flag in day-to-day life, only when the treatment of the flag runs directly up against their self-image of "People Who Care Very Strongly About the Flag".

Okay, so if someone ascribes poor socioeconomic outcomes in Appalachia to 'Borderer culture,' is he also being racist? Because he's doing that on the exact same logical grounds.

You haven't even read the book you keep referencing, please stop.

So in the absence of evidence, you're just going to assume they're doing it because they don't like black people. Rigorous thinker, you are.

I actually haven't made that claim, and I don't really agree with it. I think it's probably more complicated than that, if not by much. Specifically, I think that the flag-hysteria is sincere, insofar as it's not just a pretext to yell at black people. What I would question is whether the reaction is actually about the flag or about national pride, or whether it's about a perceived challenge to a certain vision of America and where power lies in American society, and about that challenge being issued by a black man in response to the ill-treatment of black Americans.

I'm not even sure if it's about black people as such, or if it's about a certain version of white identity coming under threat. I don't think that Kaepernick would have got quite the same reaction if we were Hispanic, Native or Asian, but I don't think it would have been fundamentally different.

 

[Mouthwash]

can you tell me what you believe "white culture" has to say about marriage, child-rearing and religion?

There's no such thing. Too many different groups settled in North America and have too many different traditions to categorize them as such (but with the destruction of traditional bonds of kinship, they're heading the same way).

Afro-American attitudes towards marriage and community weren't even that bad until about the seventies, so I would agree their difficulties before then were the result of living as second-class citizens.

JayZ is not saying what you're saying. He is making a thoughtful critique that accounts for centuries of African-American life experience. He's trying to teach young Black people how to build wealth for themselves.

"JayZ is asking "why does this happen to black people and not to white people [or Jewish people]?" And the answer to Jay is that white people, and especially Jewish people were forward looking, thinking generationally, and invested their money back into their community and their family, so that the next generation starts with a strong future basically assured."

I'm not sure what difference you think this specific qualification would make- I suspect it's your usual tactic of "ask a question with no answer, declare victory"- but apparently yes, it has. Twice. Josh Reddick does not appear to have faced any consequences as a result of rubbing his nuts on the flag, because I guess it turns out that Americans don't actually feel that strongly about their flag or representations of their flag in day-to-day life, only when the treatment of the flag runs directly up against their self-image of "People Who Care Very Strongly About the Flag".

They perceive a disrespect to their nation. To deliberately snub a tradition of honoring the flag is making a statement about America. But if you think that's hypocritical in light of that flag being used for casual purposes, feel free to ascribe it to whatever sinister motives you can dream up.

You haven't even read the book you keep referencing, please stop.

Dammit, Scott wrote that review so we wouldn't have to!

 

[miaasma]

There's no such thing. Too many different groups settled in North America and have too many different traditions to categorize them as such (but with the destruction of traditional bonds of kinship, they're heading the same way).

Afro-American attitudes towards marriage and community weren't even that bad until about the seventies, so I would agree their difficulties before then were the result of living as second-class citizens.

there's a lot to unpack in these two sentences alone, way more than i have the patience for, so i'll just say that it's wild you're so comfortable openly stating that white people have a wide array of complex views and cultural attitudes towards various topics, and then immediately fail to give black people those same considerations

almost as though you consider them to be another subspecies entirely

 

[Mouthwash]

there's a lot to unpack in these two sentences alone, way more than i have the patience for, so i'll just say that it's wild you're so comfortable openly stating that white people have a wide array of complex views and cultural attitudes towards various topics, and then immediately fail to give black people those same considerations

No, I said that there are more distinct cultural groups originating in Europe than Africa (which was a consequence of how Africans came over there). But since you seem intent on interpreting what I say in the most racist possible light, I'm not going to feed you any further.

almost as though you consider them to be another subspecies entirely