Jorissimo's opening training shadow thread

[jorissimo]

The opening being the most important part of the game is a truism. However, when you aim to finish most of your games, you will actually spend a small percentage of your time playing openings. That's why I wanted to do this shadow thread in which I will only play openings on Immortal (who knows on Deity later on), until about T100. Of course, if an important event or process is happening at that time, like a war, this critical situation will be played out until some kind of resolution has been achieved. Other than that, I will update in small steps, t0 pre-settlement, t0 once the warrior or scout has been moved, the opening post-settlement, t15, t25, t50, t75 and t100. Note that these are purely guidelines, sometimes other turns will make more sense when there is an important decision moment. Furthermore, I will list everything I have at every update for clarity and comparison purposes (techs, cities, total amount of pop, units, improvements, bpt at 100%) and be as specific as possible about the steps I took. I will also attach BUFFY saves.

Anyway, for this first game I rolled a Fractal map with a random leader, which turned out to be Hannibal (Fin/Char, starts with Fishing and Mining). I did not reroll the start but just went with the first one:

Spoiler :

It's an awkward start for Hannibal, but I don't want to make it too easy for myself so it's actually not bad. Settling on the plains hill seems like a no-brainer, and we won't lose anything by doing so except for some riverside, however we would get some riverside back in the east. I would say warrior 1 NE to see what's out there. It's probably too early to talk about tech but BW right after Agri looks like a plan.

 

[soundjata]

Nice thread idea

When settling the cap, I also think in GO (the ancient boardgame) terms: All things being equal, it is better to settle near the center of the map than in its periphery.
Seing tundra, I know which way to favor (north in your situation)

Apart from that, there is a statistically good chance you have a neighbour east, and a neighbour west. (or one neighbour on one side and the ocean on the other side) Plus there is a statistically good chance you are roughly in the middle of those two bounds. So moving east bears the risk of losing west and vice versa (especially true on deity)

Those where just general consideration to address the thread topic.
Now settling on the nearest plain hill looks perfectly reasonable

 

[jorissimo]

Nice thread idea

When settling the cap, I also think in GO (the ancient boardgame) terms: All things being equal, it is better to settle near the center of the map than in its periphery.
Seing tundra, I know which way to favor (north in your situation)

Apart from that, there is a statistically good chance you have a neighbour east, and a neighbour west. (or one neighbour on one side and the ocean on the other side) Plus there is a statistically good chance you are roughly in the middle of those two bounds. So moving east bears the risk of losing west and vice versa (especially true on deity)

Those where just general consideration to address the thread topic.
Now settling on the nearest plain hill looks perfectly reasonable

I'm glad you like the thread idea and thanks for those considerations

I actually had a closer look at the start and there seems to be water to the NE. The tiles adjacent to it do not report fresh water, so that is likely to be the coast. That means there could be a risk of ruining seafood when settling on the plains hill. The plot thickens...

 

[jorissimo]

Moving the warrior 1 NE reveals:

Spoiler :

... not a lot. But it looks like there are 2 coast tiles to the NE, which could hold seafood, although seafood could be 2 out of the coast as well. All in all a good chance some of that could be ruined, or deprived of lighthouse access, when settling on the ph. The southern coast (no fresh water) suggests we are on a peninsula. There is a possibility of using the settler to scout 1 NE to reveal some of the coast, and settle on the ph or SIP on t1.

 

[soundjata]

We know SOPH is a clear hammer boost in the early game (which we always want)

There are a few associated risks indeed.
- worse strategic positioning as per my previous post.
- orphaning some seafood.
- riverside pig/sheep/copper 2W of SIP

In this specific case I would consider those risks are "pretty low" and the consequences are "pretty minor".
In other words "a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush"

So, yeah, jump on the PH after a quick glimpse NE for sure.


@ [we are on a peninsula]
Either a peninsula (but we don't know which way it points toward)
Or an isthmus (which makes some really interesting arrangements. Continents can be shaped like a ring in some rare cases)
It could also be that we are isolated.

 

[chinemol]

if I knew I was iso, silver in capital's BFC wold be nice.

Not knowing any more, PH would be my go to spot.
Looks like a slow tech start having to tech Agg and Hunting, so maybe wheel before BW or skipping hunting for now

 

[a pen-dragon]

Hanni is Fin, not Agg, and we are in cottage wonderland.

Another point in favour of PH is that it allows another very good city 1W (or 1NW, tbd).

Re: seafood, since the advisor wants to settle on the coast that might mean it is more likely that there is seafood there?

Re: Tech: hunting can be delayed, since it would only provide +2 . Agg->BW->TW->pottery(->hunting?) looks good.

 

[jorissimo]

Hanni is Fin, not Agg, and we are in cottage wonderland.

Another point in favour of PH is that it allows another very good city 1W (or 1NW, tbd).

Re: seafood, since the advisor wants to settle on the coast that might mean it is more likely that there is seafood there?

Re: Tech: hunting can be delayed, since it would only provide +2 . Agg->BW->TW->pottery(->hunting?) looks good.

Oops I knew he was Fin but my brain typed Agg for some reason. Yeah I was also thinking of skipping hunting. Seafood seems likely indeed and that could even mean a coastal capital. I think I'll move the settler on to the corn and report back.

 

[sampsa]

Re: seafood, since the advisor wants to settle on the coast that might mean it is more likely that there is seafood there?

Not really, no. Advisor just thinks coastal tiles are good!

Re: Tech: hunting can be delayed, since it would only provide +2 . Agg->BW->TW->pottery(->hunting?) looks good.

True. 42 is a very good tile early, but doesn't beat chopping and perhaps cottages are more urgent than one tile.

 

[jorissimo]

Moving the settler reveals:

Spoiler :

Moving the settler onto the corn didn't reveal any additional tiles, so I moved it onto the ph. The way the land is shaped, if there is seafood 2 tiles out of the coast, it will almost certainly be ruined. But we don't know for sure it's there. I could move the settler 1 NE or 1 NW and if there's nothing there settle the ph on t2? Or just bite the bullet and settle the ph on t1. Not sure what makes sense.

 

[sampsa]

So on which tile can seafood be ruined even? Very nice to claim those 4 green river tiles! Obvious SOPH for me.

 

[jorissimo]

Settlement:

Spoiler :

Settled on the ph and... no seafood got ruined so far (although there could be some a knight's move away from the tile 2 NE of the cap, which would be lost).
Worker will take 12 turns, Agri 9 and then BW 15. The worker will farm the corn (5 turns), build a mine (4 + 1 turns) and then there will be time left to start on an additional farm. Settler at size 3 is looking good, working the corn, the mine, and the unimproved deer. City 2 1W of the future mine, but we will need to explore that area first.

 

[jorissimo]

T15:

Spoiler :

We have:
- Fishing, Mining, Agriculture
- 1 pop
- 1 warrior
- 1 worker
- 10 bpt

The governor switched to the Deer tile when the border popped, shaving (I believe) 2 turns off the worker. Then switched back to Corn while building a warrior. We haven't met anybody yet, meaning iso is increasingly likely. We also have stone, so a second city next to the stone could be good so we can go for the Mids. The city would require a long road though. Perhaps flicking in Sailing could be an idea. Future tech path: TW, Pottery, Masonry? The stone city would become a settler farm while the capital chops out the Mids. A more risky play would be to settle on the stone and get a free coastal connection that way. I need to move a warrior back over there to check for seafood.

 

[sampsa]

True, there is exactly one tile where fish could be ruined. It's also possible that fish on that tile is not ruined (land shape, island). To me, it has zero impact on the T1 decision. Does ruining that fish cost you the game? Certainly not.

 

[Fippy]

I would prolly go hunting - wheel (after agri ofc) with this start.
Those are 15 at size 3, chopping isn't super urgent.

 

[jorissimo]

I would prolly go hunting - wheel (after agri ofc) with this start.
Those are 15 at size 3, chopping isn't super urgent.

Oops, I was too fast...

 

[sampsa]

A more risky play would be to settle on the stone and get a free coastal connection that way.

On stone is not connected to the capital. You can zoom out and see that capital is not connected to the eastern river.

 

[jorissimo]

On stone is not connected to the capital. You can zoom out and see that capital is not connected to the eastern river.

Ah of course, tunnel vision

 

[sampsa]

To my taste your warrior movement has been a bit too risky?! You don't want to die to an animal scouting useless desert.

You could consider working 22 in the capital to get the warrior out faster. There are forested hills where you want to camp before archers spawn. If you want to understand early warrior play better, I suggest looking at https://www.youtube.com/@drewphataman5208. At least before moving up to deity!

 

[jorissimo]

You don't want to die to an animal scouting useless desert.

You're right, I saw a lion to the SW but forgot to mark it. Btw, do you happen to know when animals and barb military units spawn on Immortal?