[BTS] Just another typical Isolated immortal shadow game with Wang Kon

[5tephen]

Screenshots might not tell the whole story but fogbusting/barb defence seems like there's room for improvement. I guess Pyongyang could whip an axe if barb spawns to the south but was Wonsan settled with no escort - vulnerable to barb wolf?

Similarly attacking the barb lion earlier worked out ok but it's a significant set back if you had lost.

When I have great land like this I would value fogbusting what I have over exploration.

It maybe that immortal barbs are less bad than I recall though.

 

[lymond]

Pyongyang is definitely connected. City should probably build an Axe now to take care of barb archer and any others that may sprout. Could chop hill to finish axe quick and then start settler there. Then get a coupla cottage running between P and S.

Stonehenge, if still available, can just be swapped between cities for some hammers into it when available.

I'd say 1W of Marble is target for next city, as it is a good cottage spot.

 

[Fippy]

Bit of a hole west of Wonsan yup, a barb could walk next to your pigs tile.
Warrior in Seoul could close that for now (city not unhappy yet if he leaves).

Once your workers leave there are also 2 fogged tiles under Pyo.
Maybe i'd move warrior 1 back and replace him with an Axe (chop is okay imo).
Too many units cost some soon, ideally 2 Axes guard the open west while warriors are used as city guards for happy.
With Axes not everything must be fogbusted anymore.

So 1 worker chops for Pyo and i might use the other one for a Wonsan road until pottery.
Could reach the plains tile 1nw of Seoul next turn.

 

[CGQ]

Bit of a hole west of Wonsan yup, a barb could walk next to your pigs tile.
Warrior in Seoul could close that for now (city not unhappy yet if he leaves).

Once your workers leave there are also 2 fogged tiles under Pyo.
Maybe i'd move warrior 1 back and replace him with an Axe (chop is okay imo).
Too many units cost some soon, ideally 2 Axes guard the open west while warriors are used as city guards for happy.
With Axes not everything must be fogbusted anymore.

So 1 worker chops for Pyo and i might use the other one for a Wonsan road until pottery.
Could reach the plains tile 1nw of Seoul next turn.

Spoiler Played to Turn 53 :

Turn 50: Worker starts chopping Axe 1S of Pyo. 2nd Worker roads towards Wonsan.

Turn 51: I'm at bottom of Advanced Civilizations.

Turn 52: Yup. You weren't kidding about the barbs. Had to move worker away from danger and put a turn towards a road and whipped that Axe instead. Trees had one turn left to chop.

On a side-note, 3rd worker was in and helped 2nd worker complete the Wonsan road. Capital is now building the other Axeman to grow to Size 4.

Turn 53: First Axe is in:

Archer was swiftly dealt with. Axe moves to fog-bust the west.

Pottery comes in next turn. 2-1 Whipped monument on Wonsan (Barb distracted me though I could've whipped it two turns earlier or so.

1st worker will finish the chop next turn for 3rd settler. 2nd Worker is positioned to build first cottage next turn while other worker finishes road. What to tech next? Fishing or Masonry?
Would Oracle be feasible in this map?

What would be the best approach for workers here? Should they all build separate cottages or should they stack on and build them in 1-2 turns to get commerce sooner?

 

[lymond]

(Note: That barb archer shoulda never spawned down there...that area was easily busted....keep that in mind)

My answer to the worker question is think in terms of what cities can work at a given point in time, as well as worker priorities globally. You want cottages but you can only work so many at this point, so balance their priorities accordingly. P just whipped away a cottage working citizen.

Regardless, I would focus on getting the 2 FPs that can be shared by P and S up first...and that should be fine for now until you have more bandwidth and the capability to actually work more cottages. But those 2 FPs can basically be always worked by either P or S....adjusting as to their sizes and whip needs.

 

[5tephen]

Regarding Oracle, you're not guaranteed to get it at this point but to do so you could road forest 1W of pig, pre-chop 4 forests around Wonsan and settle on the marble - I can’t see enough forests in any city other than Wonsan to get it done in time. Settling on marble seems pretty good anyway - saves a grassland river tile, allows some cottage sharing with capital and can share pig which won’t be necessary for Wonsan to work once it gets that seafood.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/wonderdates.656787/

Opportunity cost would be delay in building cottages and immediate need to tech masonry, meditation, priesthood +/- further pre-requisite techs for whichever free tech you wanted (monarchy?) plus contamination of great person points in your best great person city. Given the need for 3 great scientists ASAP, the current need for cottages, that the best tech to Oracle isn’t that expensive anyway and the significant chance that by the time you've got all the preparation done to start Oracle it might well have been built I would favour ignoring Oracle and trying to get 3 libraries up ASAP and getting some great scientists out.

If ignoring Oracle, writing for libraries, monarchy after writing for hereditary rule. Can grow into unhappy whilst teching monarchy and building warriors to solve unhappiness once monarchy is in.

 

[Nick723]

Yeah I don’t think the oracle is likely / advisable here. You will tech priesthood relatively soon and if it’s still available then sure...but I wouldn’t compromise what you’re doing to go after it.

Next tech should definitely be fishing - you want a workboat (or 2!) in 10 turns once Wonsan’s borders pop

 

[CGQ]

(Note: That barb archer shoulda never spawned down there...that area was easily busted....keep that in mind)

My answer to the worker question is think in terms of what cities can work at a given point in time, as well as worker priorities globally. You want cottages but you can only work so many at this point, so balance their priorities accordingly. P just whipped away a cottage working citizen.

Regardless, I would focus on getting the 2 FPs that can be shared by P and S up first...and that should be fine for now until you have more bandwidth and the capability to actually work more cottages. But those 2 FPs can basically be always worked by either P or S....adjusting as to their sizes and whip needs.

Spoiler To Turn 59 :

Turn 54: Pottery arrives:

Found two fish on northern side and the North Pole:

Turn 55: Yup...I think it's starting to look like isolation here. Worker finished chop for settler:

Turn 56: Worker finishes first cottage. Wonsan builds axe while waiting for fishing:

Turn 57: Looks like the whole continent might be ours here...

Turn 57: Found pigs to the west. Yup looks like we're indeed isolated here. Seoul will build granary since I don't know what else to build. 3rd Settler almost out. Worker chops ahead at Wonsan which will go into work boats:

Turn 59: Yup. We are isolated here folks.

3rd Setter is in on Turn 60. Will settle on the marble just in case I decide to go for Oracle after all. If anything I could use the extra FP's I can share with cap, plus the riverside one too. Not sure what to do with Cap at the moment. Maybe another worker?

I presume an Axe rush is out of the question?

 

[lymond]

Note that the area SW of P can spawn barbs. You really shoulda left a warrior down there. Also, you've left a several tiles to the W exposed as well. Keep your busters in place and eventually you can add more until the whole island is secure.

 

[CGQ]

Note that the area SW of P can spawn barbs. You really shoulda left a warrior down there. Also, you've left a several tiles to the W exposed as well. Keep your busters in place and eventually you can add more until the whole island is secure.

Spoiler To Turn 67 :

Ran into some anger issues since I didn't have MP on Wonsan. Two workers build a road towards 3rd city:

Turn 62: Pusan is settled on Marble. Workers finish road just in time and begin cottage. I replaced that farm since it's shared with capital:

I whipped a granary in Seoul and chopped a WB in Wonsan:

Seoul now building worker; workboat is out in Wonsan:

Turn 64: Wonsan will chop/whip another WB for crabs then switch to settler while whip anger wears off:

Turn 65: Whipped 1 Pop for 2nd WB. That way at size 3 I can get out 4th settler working Fish, Crab, and Pig in Wonsan:

Turn 66: Writing is in next turn. Wonsan starts settler. Pyo grew to size 4 but didn't account for MP. Building a warrior there and moving Axe there in meantime:

Turn 67: Writing is in.

Workers building cottages:

Where to settle next? What to tech next? I could finish Stonehenge in 9 turns if I work PH mine on Pyo. Surprised no one built it yet this late. Oracle is likely out of the question too.

What should workers do? Should I chop that settler or keep building cottages?

 

[soundjata]

Financial is definitely a worthy trait in isolation

Spoiler :

Didn't follow the thread closely but don't complete Stonehenge
You want the failgold to pay for the research no one else is going to pay for (isolation)

Workers chop granaries > chop libraries > cottages.

Turn 65: Whipped 1 Pop for 2nd WB. That way at size 3 I can get out 4th settler working Fish, Crab, and Pig in Wonsan:

Not ideal... 1 pop whip should be avoided when the happiness ceiling is low. Rushing the work boat is wasted as you can't grow now. Chopping the boat would have been better. (And use the pig for growth! )
Such a city (high food) could have grown to size 4 (working whatever tiles) then 2 pop whip a worker, overflow into a WB (chop to complete) > overflow into library (chop to reach 30/90) > grow to size 4 again and whip the library.
Wonsan would then have 2 unhappy faces but it can start hiring a scientist at size 3 and another one soon after.

One of the most crucial factors in isolation is how soon can you sustain hiring multiple scientists in multiple cities?
And often raw commerce (cottages) is of lower priority. Especially given a financial leader.

Other important objectives are :
- Sailing if you can make use of the extra food given by lighthouses
- Monarchy if you want to grow your cities, which looks rather nice in your situation.
- Given marble, Aesthetics + Literature for failgold is appealing.
If you can nail The Great Library that's definitely good.
- Alphabet and Mathematics are niche, won't look for that in you game.
- Otherwise Metal casting and beeline Optics while preparing as many great scientists as you can.

A fourth city is not really a priority at that point.
But I can see a good (low maintenance, high commerce return) city spot 3S of Seoul.
It can take the rice from Pyongyang and has a couple of financial lakes to work.
Ideally, the settler for that should come from Pyongyang who could whip it > library (finish with the copper tile)

 

[Fippy]

Just a quick opinion, without spare happiness in cities i often delay granaries.
Usually means slow-build and not investing chops or whips into them.
In early founded cities, ofc fresh ones can benefit from fast granaries.

Similar for sailing..not a good tech if you urgently need Monarchy.
Lighthouses give more which cannot really be used for now.

Stonehenge works for failgold but has almost no value as completed wonder in isolation.

 

[CGQ]

Just a quick opinion, without spare happiness in cities i often delay granaries.
Usually means slow-build and not investing chops or whips into them.
In early founded cities, ofc fresh ones can benefit from fast granaries.

Similar for sailing..not a good tech if you urgently need Monarchy.
Lighthouses give more which cannot really be used for now.

Stonehenge works for failgold but has almost no value as completed wonder in isolation.

Spoiler Played To Turn 78 :

Went back and re-did a few turns. This time I went with soundjata's suggestion and 2-Pop whipped a worker in Wonsan>Worker with overflow to whip library:

Turn 67: Next turn we get two new workers. Will go go Aesthetics for Fail-Gold then Monarchy to grow cities. Pusan will build warriors for MP when HR civic is in:

Turn 68-69: Overflow went into another fishing boat in Wonsan for crabs. Seoul will chop then whip library:

Turn 70-71: Stonehenge is gone and we get 72 fail-gold. Pyo will switch to settler and as suggested by soundjata will be 2-pop whipped into library:

Turn 72: Library will be whipped at size 4 in Wonsan and Seoul. Settler underway in Pyo and workers spamming cottages everywhere:

Turn 73: Poly is in:

Turn 74: Put one turn into Aesthetics when I realized I needed Masonry to take advantage of fail-gold. Wonsan will run first GS when it reaches Pop of 3:

Turn 75: Next turn Masonry. Pusan borrows pigs to grow into cottages quicker. Settler will be whipped next turn. Meanwhile two workers build a road to connect 4th city:

Turn 78: Namp'o is settled. Good location for double financial lakes but we kill the fish.
Pyo will slow-build Library as to not lose any cottage from whip anger.

Wouldn't mind settling a city there. With Pusan's borders there I can immediately work those cottages. No rush to grow and dry wheat isn't that strong anyways but we can get that and horses later.

I'm thinking of building a monument then building Great Library by chopping those trees but then again food isn't that good there. Or could build it in Pusan since there's plenty of forests plus with pigs I can get more GS without
neglecting FP cottages. Or Pyo once border pops from library since there's two forests and we have the copper and grassland hill mine? You guys are the experts so someone here might know better where to build it.

I'm also inclined to settle a city in that spot between the sheep and rice there too. With lighthouse it'll get us a 3 Food financial lake and some grassland riverside cottages around the rice.

My goal in the short-term is Literature for the GL. That would really help considering low happy cap, then go to monarchy. Or should I go Monarchy first?

Here's the whole island:

We have a double fish (with culture pop) location on the NE section here. Will definitely settle a city right where that warrior is standing in the future. With lighthouse + granary that would be a great city to produce GP.

Yup we are definitely and sincerely isolated here. Another decent location is the pig + crabs on the west side. Otherwise no happy resources at all. Nothing. We'll need monarchy for sure.

On the flip-side at least we'll have plenty of pigs, crabs, fish and rice to trade with everyone on the other side of the world.

 

[lymond]

What's the deal with the city in the SE. I don't think that is what you intended.

My focus would be settling any double food spots, as these are going to get you some scientists running sooner. Ofc, you don't need to settle the whole island early, but I'd get up any valuable cities in terms of food. Staying relatively small in iso is usually a good idea as your economy just can't take it, unless you can get GLH or really tons of cottage spots.

 

[CGQ]

What's the deal with the city in the SE. I don't think that is what you intended.

My focus would be settling any double food spots, as these are going to get you some scientists running sooner. Ofc, you don't need to settle the whole island early, but I'd get up any valuable cities in terms of food. Staying relatively small in iso is usually a good idea as your economy just can't take it, unless you can get GLH or really tons of cottage spots.

I built the city 3 SE of Seoul like Soundjata suggested since I get low maintenance and financial lakes. And it can offload the rice from Pyo so Pyo can work more cottages and not grow into anger. Then I can work both those financial lakes.

 

[soundjata]

Couldn't see the whole map while posting but I think the city is fine as it is... It will help mature a couple of cottages for the cap.

Be careful while you tech towards Monarchy. Avoid meditation otherwise your bulb plans will be ruined!

the great library would look good in Wonsan imo.

 

[sampsa]

Don't kill the fish like that please. 1 from lighthoused lake is significantly worse than 4 from lighthoused ocean fish, even if the latter does require some setting up.

 

[lymond]

Couldn't see the whole map while posting but I think the city is fine as it is... It will help mature a couple of cottages for the

Sorry, gonna hafta disagree here. The city is a mistake. No reason here to deliberately ignore a strong food resource. Every argument in defense of that spot still applies to the city with the fish.

 

[Fippy]

Strong cities are important later in Iso, for army whipping.
Every fish counts

 

[CGQ]

Sorry, gonna hafta disagree here. The city is a mistake. No reason here to deliberately ignore a strong food resource. Every argument in defense of that spot still applies to the city with the fish.

Spoiler To turn 100 :

Went back and settled Namp'o 1S from the original location to keep fish alive:

Still gets to share wet rice too!

Turn 79: Namp'o will grow to size 2 then whip monument and chop WB for fish

Turn 83: Library almost done:

Turn 85: Aesthetics is done. I begin teching Priesthood>Monarchy. Meantime I'll build some fail-gold wonders:

I 3-Pop whipped another settler at Pyo for that previously mention location to share those cottages:

Turn 85: 5th city is settled:

Turn 87: Priesthood is in::

Turn 89: Really can't wait for Monarchy. That's going to make our life easier:

Turn 90: Yes I know the 'Mids are not marble but I didn't have anything else to build. I hate low production

Turn 93: Got about 120 fail-gold for Temple of Artermis. Now I can get Monarchy! Yay!

Turn 94: I got another 11 for the 'Mids. Every little bit counts:

Turn 95: Monarchy is in and I switch to HR:

Turn 96: Now I'm going for Literature for The Great Library. Pyo chops another settler for 6th city:

T99: 6th city is settled:

Capital building another worker:

Turn 100: Sailing is in!

I assume I should go for CoL next for Caste System so I can take advantage of the extra population and run more GS to reach Astro quicker? After CoL then beeline to optics? Will build GL in capital since it has higher production, good food, and no more trees in other cities to chop. Wonsan doesn't even have a mine to work sadly. Is this good so far?