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pre-release info Khmer - Antiquity Age Civilization Discussion

pre-release info
a little confused by the Baray being a “building” rather than a unique improvement. Is it a rural district still?
It's quite strange what Khmer has only one unique building as unique infrastructure. So far we've seen either Unique Improvement, or 2 Unique Buildings + Unique Quarter
I think that may be an error and it is supposed to be an unique improvement. The reason being that last line:

Baray: Unique Building. Adds Food. Increased Food on all Floodplains in this Settlement. Must be placed on a flat tile. One per Settlement.

If it was a building, there would be no need for that line, as buildings are one per settlement... or do all have that in their description?
 
Up until now I've been extremely pro-Eras and pro-civ-switching, but this civ reveal is the first one I really don't like.

We can assume Chola will be one of Khmer's historical pathways, so... what? In 500AD I stop playing an empire that shouldn't even have been founded yet, and start playing an empire which disappeared from history longer ago than the empire I was just playing?
I guess Era and Civ-Switching combined means there is now a hidden rule of "Every region should have at least one Antiquity civ for the sake of making a full 3-Ages progression route possible".

(I understand why FXS does this mechanically, but I don't really like the implementation.)
 
I think that may be an error and it is supposed to be an unique improvement. The reason being that last line:

Baray: Unique Building. Adds Food. Increased Food on all Floodplains in this Settlement. Must be placed on a flat tile. One per Settlement.

If it was a building, there would be no need for that line, as buildings are one per settlement... or do all have that in their description?
Yeah I think you’re right; seems like a mistake.
 
I think that may be an error and it is supposed to be an unique improvement. The reason being that last line:

Baray: Unique Building. Adds Food. Increased Food on all Floodplains in this Settlement. Must be placed on a flat tile. One per Settlement.

If it was a building, there would be no need for that line, as buildings are one per settlement... or do all have that in their description?
One per Settlement as opposed to One Per City, perhaps?
 
But I was sure already timeline is not a factor, but the focus of the empire (agricultural citybuilders are antique, expansionist merchants exploration)
If this is their actual design philosophy then my enthusiasm for the era system has been significantly reduced. We may as well put Incas in Antiquity and Phoenicia in Exploration.

I guess Era and Civ-Switching combined means there is now a hidden rule of "Every region should have at least one Antiquity civ for the sake of making a full 3-Ages progression route possible".
This is the most charitable explanation I can think of. I suppose it might allow for e.g. Mississippians in Antiquity, now that Shawnee occupies the Exploration slot. Even so, I don't love it.
 
Yeah I think you’re right; seems like a mistake.
The post came with a few typos already, so I believe it. I'm looking forward to the clarification though, it would open some interesting possibilities for other civs designs if it was a building.
 
If this is their actual design philosophy then my enthusiasm for the era system has been significantly reduced. We may as well put Incas in Antiquity and Phoenicia in Exploration.


This is the most charitable explanation I can think of. I suppose it might allow for e.g. Mississippians in Antiquity, now that Shawnee occupies the Exploration slot. Even so, I don't love it.
Inca may actually be Exploration, hopefully
 
There are other Sanskrit terms so it’s likely
Correct, Sanskrit and Pali was heavily used in texts by the ruling class in early Khmer society, which was also the time when Hinduism was the dominant religion. The Khmer language would really take its shape to what we know today around the time when Buddhism would replace Hinduism. Which is why in the Khmer language, Hindu-centric terminology like caste names, and occupations are similar to their Sanskrit counterparts, while more everyday words such as “fish” or “river” or “livestock”, are more original.
 
But I was sure already timeline is not a factor, but the focus of the empire (agricultural citybuilders are antique, expansionist merchants exploration)
Interestingly, Khmer does have a unique Merchant, and historically Khmer was a notable trade hub in the late Medieval period. I wonder if some draft designs indeed have them in the 2nd Age.
 
Correct, Sanskrit and Pali was heavily used in texts by the ruling class in early Khmer society, which was also the time when Hinduism was the dominant religion. The Khmer language would really take its shape to what we know today around the time when Buddhism would replace Hinduism. Which is why in the Khmer language, Hindu-centric terminology like caste names, and occupations are similar to their Sanskrit counterparts, while more everyday words such as “fish” or “river” or “livestock”, are more original.
I see, the last two words I’m looking for seem to be Khmer though
 
One per Settlement as opposed to One Per City, perhaps?
It could be, but in that case it would make more sense to say "Can be built in any settlement" or "Can also be built in towns". There wouldn't be the need to use the term "one" there, as it implies it is something you would generally be able to build multiple, but this one you can only do one so you point it out.
 
Its kind of unusual . . . 'Expansionist' . . . but focuses on having a large capital and gets reduced happiness in all other cities?

A ton of flood based effects . . . you really need lots of floodplains.
"Expansionist" is a Growth trait in Civ 7. Which makes sense because expanding your city is directly caused by, and correlated with your Population Growth.

"Scientific" also seems to be tied to Specialists. There are no direct bonuses to Science with the Khmer, but I've spotted a few that make their Specialists better.

In other news, Vaishya is the name for the Indian Merchant Caste, and it's weird to see it represented here as a Khmer UCU. The UMU's name gave back a Thai military parade?!

The only things I haven’t found the origin for are Ksekam Chamnon, Mousong, Amnach, and Yuthahathi

Mousong = Monsoon, most likely.

Google says "Yutha Hathi" is a Thai royal parade featuring Elephants. The third featured image actually shows a rider with a heavy crossbow, cf.: the Ballista Elephant which has been the Khmer's UU since their début in Civ4.

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A weird choice for a name but oh well.
 
"Expansionist" is a Growth trait in Civ 7. Which makes sense because expanding your city is directly caused by, and correlated with your Population Growth.

"Scientific" also seems to be tied to Specialists. There are no direct bonuses to Science with the Khmer, but I've spotted a few that make their Specialists better.

In other news, Vaishya is the name for the Indian Merchant Caste, and it's weird to see it represented here as a Khmer UCU. The UMU's name gave back a Thai military parade?!
The Military Unit also translates to “The Elephant Battle” apparently
 
I guess Era and Civ-Switching combined means there is now a hidden rule of "Every region should have at least one Antiquity civ for the sake of making a full 3-Ages progression route possible".

(I understand why FXS does this mechanically, but I don't really like the implementation.)
I figured this to be the case as well. That's why I won't be surprised to see Antiquity Norse show up, at least later, as a pathway to the Normans and all the other Scandinavians.
Inca may actually be Exploration, hopefully
I'm pretty sure I've heard that they have a requirement to fulfill, as in settle near enough mountains to transition to them, so they surely would need to be.

As far as the Khmer go they are the earliest group out of SEA that they could easily make for a civilization, so it's no surprise to me. But I agree that Exploration Age would have made more sense.
Arguably I wouldn't have minded Nanyue/Nam Viet, similar to how Vietnam was designed for Civ 6, but I could see them forgoing that and having Exploration Age Dai Viet instead.
 
If this is their actual design philosophy then my enthusiasm for the era system has been significantly reduced. We may as well put Incas in Antiquity and Phoenicia in Exploration.


This is the most charitable explanation I can think of. I suppose it might allow for e.g. Mississippians in Antiquity, now that Shawnee occupies the Exploration slot. Even so, I don't love it.
As I see it, civilization age is defined by:
  1. Time of the civilization peak. Here Khmer fits exploration almost completely, but with a bit of a stretch, Jayavarman II reign could still fit the end of antiquity (not to mention Funan)
  2. Technologies. That's significant reason to put Khmer in antiquity and Shawnee in exploration
  3. Need to fill regions for each age. I believe this reason is the strongest one for both Khmer and Shawnee.
Over it's important to note what Civilization is a strategic game, not history simulation and gameplay motives beat historical accuracy.
 
Seems like that has generally always been the case. After all, Aztec uniques in 5 and 6 were places the ancient and classical eras.
Doesn't mean it made sense, now with extra civs per era, I hope the Aztecs get their Jaguars at exploration.
 
I guess Era and Civ-Switching combined means there is now a hidden rule of "Every region should have at least one Antiquity civ for the sake of making a full 3-Ages progression route possible".

(I understand why FXS does this mechanically, but I don't really like the implementation.)
I don't mind it myself, but I hope it doesn't happen often and when it does it is because they have a clear succession in line where they have like 2 time wise exploration civs without a very good antiquity version so they make the older one be the ancient (people who are more informed of the speculations threads probably already know the likely path for Khmer). Because if they are too lenient with it, I can see it creating a controversy where people would see them picking civ x who only existed in exploration as antiquity as they saying they think that civ is behind the others of similar time and would fit that older age better. I don't think the creators would do it with that judgement in mind, just worried that doing this many times could easily leave space for people to speculate on that.

EDIT:
Technologies. That's significant reason to put Khmer in antiquity and Shawnee in exploration
I really hope that is something they don't take in consideration as I see it as a field mine for controversy...
 
My fears were confirmed. It was the Nintendo Switch trailer that showed a glimpse of a Baray which in turn teased the placement of the Khmer in Antiquity. As an empire that lasted from 802-1431 AD, the most appropriate placement would have been the Exploration Age. I'm not going to lie, this is like putting the Mongols or Venice in the Antiquity Age. It would be interesting to know the reason behind this decision. Maybe the development team couldn't find an interesting, powerful enough and rich in historical finds South East Asian civilization to include in Antiquity?
 
Champa would work perfectly well as Age 1 of Southeast Asia. Khmer really feels out of place, and I don't think there will be any repositioning in the future.
 
I don't mind it myself, but I hope it doesn't happen often and when it does it is because they have a clear succession in line where they have like 2 time wise exploration civs without a very good antiquity version so they make the older one be the ancient (people who are more informed of the speculations threads probably already know the likely path for Khmer). Because if they are too lenient with it, I can see it creating a controversy where people would see them picking civ x who only existed in exploration as antiquity as they saying they think that civ is behind the others of similar time and would fit that older age better. I don't think the creators would do it with that judgement in mind, just worried that doing this many times could easily leave space for people to speculate on that.
We know Siam are a modern age civ and Borobudur has been sighted so the speculation is that Majapahit/Indonesia will probably be one of their historical civs (Chola or Vietnam too?). Some areas of the world just don't have enough history pre-400 for a properly detailed civ unfortunately.

That aside, I hope the Baray is typo'd and is actually an improvement, I don't want some civs to feel underdone with fewer uniques.
 
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