Kooky beliefs: Why?

[Timsup2nothin]

Like I said it's already happened.

You can put your fingers in your ears if you want, if your ideological needs regarding this are more important than people's lives, but it's kind of offensive to be honest.

It happened, in tiny little pockets where once it happened the anti-vaxxer "movement" lost momentum quite naturally. At it's PEAK it might have created a few HUNDRED cases, in a nation of hundreds of MILLIONS, of diseases with mortality rates such that tens of thousands of cases would be required before they could be expected to cause a single fatality.

Your grandstanding on "people's lives" appears to be what serves an ideological need.

 

[red_elk]

What is anti-vaxxer movement? If these people have doubts that some of the vaccines may have negative effects on health, they may have a point. Because there were cases when dangerous side effects of medications were discovered only after years of clinical usage. But if they oppose all kinds of vaccination in general, this is ignorance, obscurantism. And dangerous form of it, because it puts other people (e.g. their kids) at risk.

 

[civvver]

What about GMOs? Kooky or not kooky?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

What is anti-vaxxer movement? If these people have doubts that some of the vaccines may have negative effects on health, they may have a point. Because there were cases when dangerous side effects of medications were discovered only after years of clinical usage. But if they oppose all kinds of vaccination in general, this is ignorance, obscurantism. And dangerous form of it, because it puts other people (e.g. their kids) at risk.

People who don't want their kids vaccinated out of concerns about the necessity vs risk. Unfortunately some among them took it into their heads that they were obligated to "spread the word" and make a "movement" about it...mostly for their own aggrandizement. This mostly consisted of actors who couldn't get a bigger gig than background player on a commercial who turned themselves into household names by "leading the movement."

Anyway, among the people who actually just care about the welfare of their own kid the only vaccine they usually avoid is MMR. It is "one more component in the chemical soup," and serves almost no purpose even if it were totally harmless, and really the only thing it seems to have going for it is that at thirty bucks a pop making it a legal requirement in order to put your kid in school creates a 150 million dollar a year revenue stream, just in the US.

 

[red_elk]

Anyway, among the people who actually just care about the welfare of their own kid the only vaccine they usually avoid is MMR.

If it's informed decision based on consultation with expert, it's ok IMO.
The question who can be considered expert, can be somewhat tricky though.

 

[tetley]

If it's informed decision based on consultation with expert, it's ok IMO.
The question who can be considered expert, can be somewhat tricky though.

The people calling everyone else's beliefs "kooky" are, of course.

 

[Bugfatty300]

What about GMOs? Kooky or not kooky?

Anti-GMO sentiment can be pretty kooky sometimes.

For example the "seed vault" project in Svalbard can't accept genetically modified seeds due to political requests. Which makes me wonder how they're allowed to store any domesticated crop seeds at all.

 

[Old Hippy]

Anti-GMO sentiment can be pretty kooky sometimes.

For example the "seed vault" project in Svalbard can't accept genetically modified seeds due to political requests. Which makes me wonder how they're allowed to store any domesticated crop seeds at all.

doubt Monsanto would allow their seeds to be stored for the use of future Governments to use and include in their research, they are "kooky '' like that


It is one of the reasons seeds are stored there as 1000's of different local varieties (Asian rice ) disappear due to GMO's replacing them. if the current batch of GMO seed is replaced they would need to store them too, for a future safe guard

the recent Syrian seed release is a good example of localised ancient middle eastern seeds being needed due to war, Monsanto's are freely(?) available as always but not for research by others
http://www.news.com.au/technology/environment/conservation/frozen-doomsday-vault-containing-almost-every-seed-on-earth-has-been-opened/news-story/9c38a4ae6e481315b05d6ddfe8648f6c

Nearly two-thirds of the specimens withdrawn last month were unique varieties of ancient crops from across the Middle East and Africa.

They will be used by ICARDA to fulfil requests for crop diversity from breeders, researchers and farmers around the world, so they can develop and test new strains to cope with a changing climate and new diseases.

ICARDA Director-General Mahmoud El-Solh said:

“We can get, through crossing and breeding, traits that are tolerant to drought, tolerant to heat, tolerant to specific diseases and so forth.”

 

[Valka D'Ur]

People who don't want their kids vaccinated out of concerns about the necessity vs risk. Unfortunately some among them took it into their heads that they were obligated to "spread the word" and make a "movement" about it...mostly for their own aggrandizement. This mostly consisted of actors who couldn't get a bigger gig than background player on a commercial who turned themselves into household names by "leading the movement."

Anyway, among the people who actually just care about the welfare of their own kid the only vaccine they usually avoid is MMR. It is "one more component in the chemical soup," and serves almost no purpose even if it were totally harmless, and really the only thing it seems to have going for it is that at thirty bucks a pop making it a legal requirement in order to put your kid in school creates a 150 million dollar a year revenue stream, just in the US.

It's not other countries' fault that the US has such a backward system where people can't afford routine immunizations.

I have had personal experience with mumps. It's not particularly dangerous when a younger kid has it, but I was 17 when it was spread around the high school I attended. I ended up missing three weeks of school, including my final exams in Grade 12 biology and chemistry - classes I needed to get into college. I had to repeat those courses the following semester (had missed too much to just apply to write the exam). I've had lifelong medical consequences from this disease.


You can throw statistics around all you want - statistics don't give a damn in real life.

 

[civvver]

MMR one of the least concerning vaccines? Really? I thought it was one of the most important standards. Yeah you aren't that likely to get it in the US because everyone is vaccinated but as more and more parents forgo it there have been more and more outbreaks. If I were to skip any vaccines I'd say the behavior related ones would be the least important like hep B, I mean you're probably only contracting this if you are a drug addict, or maybe from unprotected sex, but it's a more recent vaccine that kids don't have to worry about. And chicken pox, did you know it doesn't actually prevent chicken pox? It's more for lessening the severity and preventing shingles but again a newer vaccine that may not be totally necessary. And flu shots, we get them, but I didn't get them when I was a kid, nor did my family, I question their necessity sometimes outside of the elderly.

HPV is a much newer one, anyone over like 20 or 25 probably didn't get it, but due to the prevalence of HPV among teens now and how hard it is to stop transmission (condoms don't fully protect) I would consider it mandatory.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Given that I, like pretty much every human being my age, had M,M, and R when I was a kid (the diseases, not the vaccine) and the impact of these diseases in America was negligible even when practically everyone was catching them (well fed Americans with access to aspirin weather these storms) the little outbreaks of recent times don't impress me much. So I do understand people who say such a vaccine isn't necessary.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

MMR one of the least concerning vaccines? Really? I thought it was one of the most important standards. Yeah you aren't that likely to get it in the US because everyone is vaccinated but as more and more parents forgo it there have been more and more outbreaks. If I were to skip any vaccines I'd say the behavior related ones would be the least important like hep B, I mean you're probably only contracting this if you are a drug addict, or maybe from unprotected sex, but it's a more recent vaccine that kids don't have to worry about. And chicken pox, did you know it doesn't actually prevent chicken pox? It's more for lessening the severity and preventing shingles but again a newer vaccine that may not be totally necessary. And flu shots, we get them, but I didn't get them when I was a kid, nor did my family, I question their necessity sometimes outside of the elderly.

HPV is a much newer one, anyone over like 20 or 25 probably didn't get it, but due to the prevalence of HPV among teens now and how hard it is to stop transmission (condoms don't fully protect) I would consider it mandatory.

It's possible to die from measles. One of the kids in the family my dad and I lived with for awhile in the '70s had it. He died in the hospital.

I've been fortunate with chicken pox - never was immunized against it, and escaped without it during more than one outbreak during my school years, so I didn't have it as a kid.

It's annoying when people make statements that "(practically) everyone gets these as kids" - that may be specific people's experiences, but they can't assume it's true of everyone else. I escaped chicken pox in my childhood, even while sharing a bedroom with a kid who had it (the younger sister of the aforementioned kid who died from measles). But many years later, well after adulthood, chicken pox was going around the schools again, and I had an appointment for a music lesson at my teacher's home. One of her kids opened the door, and the teacher said, "Oh, by the way, you've had chicken pox, haven't you? I forgot to mention my kid has it." Thanks a lot.

 

[tetley]

You're dealing with two sets of parents protecting their children: one protecting their kids from vaccines, the other protecting them from those who lack it. Expect some catfights.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Your perspective is backwards.

"Escaping" from having what are called "the childhood diseases" for good reason doesn't make you fortunate. Every one of them is known for having a much higher rate of producing long term consequences in adults than children. You're supposed to get them when you are a child, get them over with, and move on.

I find it hilarious that you are annoyed when someone makes a statement you can say "that may be specific people's experience" about, and in the same post whip out your "well, people can die, I knew one" as if YOUR specific experience means we should ignore the reality that measles has a negligibly low (but yes, nonzero) mortality rate. I never doubted that you place your anecdotal evidence in a separate class from everyone elses, since your world clearly revolves around you, but I thought your devotion to the church of science would give statistical evidence more sway.

 

[Senethro]

A little non-zero mortality rate never hurt anyone.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

A little non-zero mortality rate never hurt anyone.

Not very many people anyway. And society seemed to get over the rare instances where people died of childhood diseases. Population certainly didn't plateau.

 

[warpus]

It happened, in tiny little pockets where once it happened the anti-vaxxer "movement" lost momentum quite naturally. At it's PEAK it might have created a few HUNDRED cases, in a nation of hundreds of MILLIONS, of diseases with mortality rates such that tens of thousands of cases would be required before they could be expected to cause a single fatality.

Your grandstanding on "people's lives" appears to be what serves an ideological need.

Okay, great, so it didn't kill enough people, so we should allow people to be negligent around others. Brilliant thinking.

Next we should promote texting and driving, because it doesn't really kill a lot of people either. Or getting high and driving maybe too.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Okay, great, so it didn't kill enough people, so we should allow people to be negligent around others. Brilliant thinking.

Next we should promote texting and driving, because it doesn't really kill a lot of people either. Or getting high and driving maybe too.

Well, that was fairly hyperbolic. How about we use something more in scale.

There have been cases of electronic devices bursting into flames when they are being recharged, so let's outlaw recharging them in multi-family dwellings since it does present a minute risk to others in the building.

There are any number of similar examples. A thing with a very small chance of happening which if it does happen has very little chance of doing any harm to anyone, much less fatal harm to anyone. Do you think we should regulate them all?

 

[thecrazyscot]

No one has a completely coherent belief system. Everyone has beliefs which don't logically fit into the overall system. I don't know why people continue to be surprised when they encounter inconsistency.

 

[warpus]

Well, that was fairly hyperbolic. How about we use something more in scale.

There have been cases of electronic devices bursting into flames when they are being recharged, so let's outlaw recharging them in multi-family dwellings since it does present a minute risk to others in the building.

There are any number of similar examples. A thing with a very small chance of happening which if it does happen has very little chance of doing any harm to anyone, much less fatal harm to anyone. Do you think we should regulate them all?

No, but vaccinations definitely need to be regulated, for all the reasons I outlined previously.

Anyone who is against vaccinations is going to get flak from me - they are promoting a dangerous thing and it's important to stand up to that and fight against it.