Last known cavalry charge

[Verbose]

The Brits did not have their full force there nor were they fighting for their own home soil.

Wouldn't have mattered if the Germans had been able to bring to bear on them what they brought to France. Saved by Channel.

Noone else who encountered the Wehrmacht that early were much beyond a second or third rate power. France was a first rate power that had to have been expecting (or at least preparing for the possibility of) war for the last 4-5 years or so. That they didn't last significantly longer than lesser powers like Greece, Denmark, Yugoslavia, Norway and others is pretty bad.

And Greece, Yugoslavia and Norway all have formidable geography for defense. Certainly more so than the plains of northern France. Denmark doesn't, but Denmark lasted something like the Netherlands under the circumstances.

I've just been reading a few accounts of the French war effort and its pretty sad. Yeah they were outmanned, outgunned, and out-materialed...suffered from some strategic incompetence and lack of proper intelligence, but these deficits were compounded by the outright defeatist attitude of the leadership and all but absent morale of many of the defending troops, many of whom abandoned positions that they could of held due to rumor and fear.

British accounts then I take it? They weren't outgunned, outmanned and outmaterialised. The deciding factors lay elsewhere.
As for the moral, the German call at the time was that French moral problems were an effect of being outfought rather than a cause for being outfought. French moral is also hard to asses because it was uneven. Unwilling reservists in their forties, survivors of 1918, weren't exactly the first choice of anyone to take on German armoured spearheads. But they got landed with the job, since the quality units of the French army found themselves in the vicinity of the Dutch border, well away from the fight. Again a problem of dispositions and geography rather than moral or troop quality. A disaster, but hardly "sad" in the sense implied.

The Germans themselves were stretched. Didn't have perfect intelligence. A battle plan that was not followed due to insubordinate commanders. If positions were held and counterattacks made, they could have been stalled. But these efforts never really came.

Because the brilliance of the Sichelschnitt was to ensure that precisely the units that could have mounted a credible counterattack had ended up out of the way of the fighting, encircled to the north of it. The French lost for ending up all over the place except where they were needed. The units tasked with trying to stop the Germans were the second and third line formations, but not by design and not because the French lacked quality units as well.

The Greeks made a better showing in the war and they had a mere fraction of what the French did militarily.

Fighting the Italians most of the time, with geography on their side. Until the Germans took time off to help the Italians out, at which point the Greek fortunes took a nosedive.

And yeah, the Russians could give land for time. But they also held fast under horrific sieges of their major cities. Refused to abandon or surrender even when German forces were advancing on every relevant city and objective in Western Russia. Did the French have the resolve to hold Paris to the last man? The Russians were ready to do that in Stalingrad, Leningrad, and probably Moscow if it came to that.

If you look into it, there weren't in fact anyone to hold Paris to the last man. A few minor formations to mount a symbolic show at best, but nothing that could actually fortify any significant part of Paris. It would be a nightmate to attack, but only provided you had a decent supply of troops to defend it, and these couldn't be brought into Paris quick enough for the job. The Ardennes break-through and the speed of the German advance saw to that.

The French? They simply pulled out and called Paris a free city. But I guess it worked out for them in the end. Would Paris be the ultimate tourist destination that it is today if the French had actually bothered to fight for it?

Not if the Germans in 1944 hadn't thought better of blowing it up. The charges were already set. So yeah, the French and the Germans alike could agree on Paris actually being exceptional enough to spare both in 1940 and 1944.

I imagine that might rankle with a red-blooded brit, since blowing up that architectural monstrosity which is London would likely improve it.

 

[Sofista]

Fighting the Italians most of the time, with geography on their side. Until the Germans took time off to help the Italians out, at which point the Greek fortunes took a nosedive.

*nods*
And I found this claim on the Interrant.

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

The actual reference is in the Book of Revelations where Meggido will be the site of the final battle between good and evil. As Rodgers said, it was probably chosen because of its historic qualities as a decisive battleground. I think the city of Jericho was very near there as well, but could be wrong.

I believe Megiddo is the gathering place of the worlds armies, the final battle will be fought for/in Jerusalem.

-------------------------------------------

With regards to the Polish cavalry charge against German armor:

Metaphor Alert! - The legend sprang up during the war that the Polish cavalry, hidebound in the nineteenth century, had charged German tanks using lances and sabres.

Not remotely true; for starters, the Poles stopped issuing lances for non-ceremonial duties after 1935...

http://www.shotinthedark.info/archives/006381.html

 

[lovett]

The Brits did not have their full force there nor were they fighting for their own home soil. Noone else who encountered the Wehrmacht that early were much beyond a second or third rate power. France was a first rate power that had to have been expecting (or at least preparing for the possibility of) war for the last 4-5 years or so. That they didn't last significantly longer than lesser powers like Greece, Denmark, Yugoslavia, Norway and others is pretty bad.

I've just been reading a few accounts of the French war effort and its pretty sad. Yeah they were outmanned, outgunned, and out-materialed...suffered from some strategic incompetence and lack of proper intelligence, but these deficits were compounded by the outright defeatist attitude of the leadership and all but absent morale of many of the defending troops, many of whom abandoned positions that they could of held due to rumor and fear.

The USSR was a first rate power which had, on a strategic level, been preparing for war with the west for over a decade. On the Soviet/Western border it had 12,000 aircraft, 15,000 tanks, 60,000 guns and mortar, and 190 divisions. Each of these forces outnumbered the German invading forces vastly. For examply, Germany invaded with just 3,600 tanks. Germany only outnumbered the USSR in terms of grunt foot soldiers. And it's hardly like the USSR could even say it was unexpected, Stalin himself had been warned many times by his own intelligence services that an attack was impending.

Yet still operation Barborossa saw the Wermacht capture an area larger then all France, Kill or captur over 800,000 Soviet troops, inflict massive tank casualties (6:1 kill ratios) and utterly cripple the Soviet airforce (2000 planes destroyed on the first day). And this was in a matter of weeks.

From this, we could deduce that the Red army is also 'sad'. Alongside the French, the Polish, the Greeks. So on and so forth. Or we could deduce that none of these armies were sad, rather, that the Wermacht was a terrifyingly efficient fighting machine. One able to take control of all Western Europe no less


You could say that the Soviet union redeemed itself by going on the whip the German army, but it's a bit hard to do this when all of your country is under enemy control. You don't have any handy industrial powerhouses just east of the Urals. Perhaps to redeem themselves France could have tried to create a highly successful and widespread guerilla restance? Hey! Wait a second....

N.B It's a bit unfair to compare how long France held out with how long smalled countries held out. Theres such a thing as commensurate force, and Greece was hardly invaded on the same scale as France.

 

[FriendlyFire]

This site claims the Italians made the last cavalry charge, in 1942. On the Russian front, as I already suspected in my last post.

Don´t be too surprised if I find something else.

Last know calvary charge with sabars ONLY. yes i would say so.
Russians use cossak troops for inflilation and scouting upto late 44 i would say

 

[Dodge_272]

Cavalry charges are still going on all the time, in Afghanistan and Sudan amongst other places.

 

[Ancient Grudge]

Last know calvary charge with sabars ONLY. yes i would say so.
Russians use cossak troops for inflilation and scouting upto late 44 i would say

IIRC the Soviets used Cossack (and other formations)Calvary right up till the end of the War in Europe, such as the Capture of the Pomeranian town of Leba.

Also im pretty sure that in Operation Bagration (22nd June-19 August 1944) Cossack troops used their sabres extensively 'even cutting at arms raised in surrender'.

 

[gangleri2001]

I've always thought that it was the USA against Pancho Villa. Is this right?

 

[Dodge_272]

No. There was a cavalry charge in Afghanistan by the 'Northern Alliance' at some point a few years ago IIRC. I'll try to find the source.

At Bai Beche the crucial breakthrough occurred by accident. A Green Beret told one of Dostum’s lieutenants to get his horses ready for action while they got aircraft into position. This was misinterpreted as a signal to charge. The men of ODA 595 watched in disbelief as 250 horsemen galloped straight at a Taliban position a mile away that was about to be bombed. They were convinced that a “friendly fire” catastrophe was about to occur. No one would ever have intentionally ordered a cavalry charge in such close proximity with an air strike. But it worked out better than anyone could have expected. One of the Green Berets recalled: “Three or four bombs hit right in the middle of the enemy position. Almost immediately after the bombs exploded, the horses swept across the objective — the enemy was so shell-shocked. I could see the horses blasting out the other side. It was the finest sight I ever saw. The men were thrilled; they were so happy. It wasn’t done perfectly, but it will never be forgotten.”

http://www.afji.com/2006/11/2146103

Can that be called the last successful cavalry charge?

 

[Sharwood]

No. There was a cavalry charge in Afghanistan by the 'Northern Alliance' at some point a few years ago IIRC. I'll try to find the source.



http://www.afji.com/2006/11/2146103

Can that be called the last successful cavalry charge?

It can be called the most awesome! I wish they'd videotaped it.

 

[GinandTonic]

Wouldn't have mattered if the Germans had been able to bring to bear on them what they brought to France. Saved by Channel.

Saved by a navy. Who existed for exactly such a purpose. If there wasnt the channel then there would have been less resorces for the navy and more for the army. It's not like it was just a wild fluke that the Brits considered the navy the senior service.

 

[FriendlyFire]

IIRC the Soviets used Cossack (and other formations)Calvary right up till the end of the War in Europe, such as the Capture of the Pomeranian town of Leba.

Also im pretty sure that in Operation Bagration (22nd June-19 August 1944) Cossack troops used their sabres extensively 'even cutting at arms raised in surrender'.

Wasnt the calvary backed by T34s ??? IIRC the calvary was used to chase the routed germans in areas that the tanks couldnt get to such as swamp areas. The cossack were also armed with rifles but given the paniced german troops fleeing like cattle they hacked them down by the thousands.

I guess it would count even if it was primarly the russian artillary and tanks that routed the german troops and then the calvary went in.

 

[Dachs]

Also im pretty sure that in Operation Bagration (22nd June-19 August 1944) Cossack troops used their sabres extensively 'even cutting at arms raised in surrender'.

Wasnt the calvary backed by T34s ??? IIRC the calvary was used to chase the routed germans in areas that the tanks couldnt get to such as swamp areas. The cossack were also armed with rifles but given the paniced german troops fleeing like cattle they hacked them down by the thousands.

You are referring to the Pliev Cav/Mech Group, including I Mechanized Corps and IV Guards Cavalry Corps. Used in the "Bobruisk" part of Bagration, it was a sort of ad hoc unit that exploited the gap torn in Army Group Center's front line with the virtual destruction of the 9th Army. I believe that it also participated in the Minsk encirclement, though I need to double-check that.

One of the most awesome formations in history.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Wow....I knew the French got their a$$es handed to them, but I never realized it happened that quickly. That's...pretty sad.

It's not as if anyone else could have done better in the given situation, including the Germans: there were 16 French reserve divisions assigned to guard the Ardennes front, all of them infantry. Coming through the Ardennes were 45 experienced German divisions, including 7 armored ones.

The only French units to break and run were these 16 Ardennes divisions, but who can blame them? The other hundred or so that were in Belgium fought valiantly and stood their ground, even holding Army Group B under von Bock up, and only retreating when forced to, as Army Group A drove for the Somme after the Ardennes breakout, threatening to pin the entire Allied ground forces in Belgium.

France made the best of a bad situation, but they were thoroughly outwitted by the Manstein Plan. Had it been any other army in that situation, even American or German, you would have seen a similar result.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

France was a first rate power that had to have been expecting (or at least preparing for the possibility of) war for the last 4-5 years or so.

The Germans themselves were stretched. Didn't have perfect intelligence. A battle plan that was not followed due to insubordinate commanders.

German commanders were for the most part aristocratic, old Prussian-types, raised and trained in that tradition. They were taught to think for themselves, and to disobey orders to acomplish their objectives. It's no mystery that the best commanders of the war, Rommel, Guderian, Manstein, and Runstedt, chronically disobeyed orders, and were repeatedly sacked by Hitler for it.

If positions were held and counterattacks made, they could have been stalled. But these efforts never really came.

The only opportunity for this was during Army Group A's drive for the Somme; had the Allies had any real reserves left, they could have hit Army Group A's vulnerable northern flank, but they had no reserves to manouver with by this point, and thus were unable to take avantage of such a situation.

The Greeks made a better showing in the war and they had a mere fraction of what the French did militarily.

The Greeks were fighting the Italians.

Did the French have the resolve to hold Paris to the last man? The Russians were ready to do that in Stalingrad, Leningrad, and probably Moscow if it came to that.

The French? They simply pulled out and called Paris a free city. But I guess it worked out for them in the end. Would Paris be the ultimate tourist destination that it is today if the French had actually bothered to fight for it?

What could the French possibly have acomplished by "holding Paris to the last man," other than a destroyed city and millions of dead French?

The Russians fought to the last man because they were threatened with execution if they retreated, and because Stalin ordered them to.

 

[EdwardTking]

The charges were already set. So yeah, the French and the Germans alike could agree on Paris actually being exceptional enough to spare both in 1940 and 1944.

It was nothing to do with the quality of Paris. The Germans knew they were not going to win in 1944 and had no rational reason to antagonise the French.

I imagine that might rankle with a red-blooded brit, since blowing up that architectural monstrosity which is London would likely improve it.

You got EuroDisney, we got the 2012 Olympics.

 

[Verbose]

It was nothing to do with the quality of Paris. The Germans knew they were not going to win in 1944 and had no rational reason to antagonise the French.

It was more of a group effort, negotiated between the French resistance and von Choltitz and von Speydel. Choltitz had had no qualms about dynamiting Warsaw, but got cold feet about Paris, to the point of finally disobeying Hitler's direct orders. The sheer magnitude of blowing up Paris did get to the people tasked with it, so I'd say the fact that it was Paris, specifically, did matter.

 

[Domen]

Sorry for resurrecting, but I wonder, ...

What is the last known camel cavalry charge in history?

The first one currently known was in 853 BC:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Qarqar

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And I wonder why didn't the natives of South America develop llama cavalry or llama-drawn chariots (but the wheel would be necessary first) units:

https://www.google.pl/search?q=can+...oICQDg&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=638

http://www.mountlehmanllamas.com/trivia53.html

http://www.wikihow.com/Ride-a-Llama

http://shangrillama.blogspot.com/2012/03/how-fast-can-llama-run.html

https://www.google.pl/search?q=lama...44,d.Yms&fp=1d409eaa54493190&biw=1366&bih=611

Link to video.

=====================================

Here also about ox cavalry and buffalo-riding:

http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=19137

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uwmLHX5nT...an+riding+a+water+buffalo+in+Manila,+1914.jpg

And also this oxen cavalry:

http://www.messybeast.com/genetics/hybrid-bovines.htm

 

[Gucumatz]

I have heard Llamas aren't good for riding. Not really too familiar in that aspect. As for the OP - there continue to be cavalry use in some areas of the world. My grandfather on my Guatemalan side served in the Guatemalan Cavalry and he said the cavalry was used from time to time still, not sure if anything as a charge goes - But there have been other non world-war usage.

 

[ace99]

I assume this thread already covered the Polish cavalry charge against panzers.