Latin as the universal European language

[Lillefix]

One thing I've noticed when Russian names are transcribed into English is that ë becomes e, even though it's supposed to be pronounced more like o. Most of the rest of the world put an o there instead, so the prononciation is a bit closer to Russian.

 

[Leoreth]

That might be a clever way out, but it is the opposite direction of addressing the issue of not being phonetic.

Sure, but there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it. "Being phonetic" just means that the same set of letters always transcribes the same sound, it doesn't have to mean one sound = one letter.

It's not that I don't get the difference (my pronounciation is rather decent, according to those Yank lads in the PR dep at work). It's just that, 't' and 'h' sound combinations is a very specifically Germanic thing, and we, for example, just don't pronounce it like that normally, and wouldn't bother actually. If it's a global language, it should be averaged out phonology-wise. That's like asking everyone to pronouce that funny Welsh 'fthf' sound.

Not, it isn't. First off, the only Germanic language that uses the "th" sounds (i.e. voiced and voiceless) is English as far as I know (and Icelandic, but that barely counts). German doesn't, and I'm still perfectly fine with it. If you want to reduce a global language to sets of sounds that every native speaker can immediate reproduce, you don't have much left to create enough words. On the other hand, "th" exists in non-Germanic languages (for example in Spanish, where it's transcribed as c). I see no reason to view the fricative of a common position of pronounciation as something completely exceptional.

That's according to the phonetics you are used to. According to average Russian pronounciation, "though" would be 'dou' or 'zou', because 'th' is just non-existant.

So you want to standardize every language to conform with the "average Russian pronounciation"?

We'd have a world full of people who speak like stereotyped cold warriors.

 

[Traitorfish]

So you want to standardize every language to conform with the "average Russian pronounciation"?

We'd have a world full of people who speak like stereotyped cold warriors.

Is that an argument for or against?

 

[Leoreth]

I'd rather prefer a world that doesn't invoke Hollywood cliches. Opinions may differ

 

[GamezRule]

The world already invokes Hollywood cliches. Take it or leave it.

 

[kochman]

I find it bewildering that anyone voted yes...
It's completely insane.

Why not make it ancient greek? That was the language of the learned Romans after all.

It doesn't make a lick of sense to try to impliment such a thing.

 

[Flying Pig]

Why not make it ancient greek? That was the language of the learned Romans after all.

They learned Greek as people of my generation learned Latin.

 

[Veles]

One thing I've noticed when Russian names are transcribed into English is that ë becomes e, even though it's supposed to be pronounced more like o. Most of the rest of the world put an o there instead, so the prononciation is a bit closer to Russian.

For some strange reason, there is a convention in Russian, that 'ё' (sounds like yo) can be written as 'е' (ye) (an echo of the time when everything had to be handwritten, I guess). So, for example, Хрущёв is written as Хрущев, or Горбачёв as Горбачев. Then it gets transcribed into Latin as Khrushchev and Gorbachev. Frankly, I think simple phonetic transcription would be preferralbe HROO-shof, gor-ba-CHOF.

..."Being phonetic" just means that the same set of letters always transcribes the same sound, it doesn't have to mean one sound = one letter.

We should strive for the latter, imo. But whatever.

...If you want to reduce a global language to sets of sounds that every native speaker can immediate reproduce, you don't have much left to create enough words.

Methinks, it'll reduce itself this way naturally anyway, when more and more people of different languages start actively using it.

So you want to standardize every language to conform with the "average Russian pronounciation"?

Nah, not specifically Russian. Just common sounds. No 'th', 'fthf', French 'r', Russian 'ы', Polish 'rz' or things like that. Latin has pretty simple phonetics, imo, suitable for all.

Actually, when you think of it, Italian has pretty much no weird sounds too. Perhaps it's a good candidate also? Won't copy their intonation, though.

We'd have a world full of people who speak like stereotyped cold warriors.

Typical Hollywood ruskie accent doesn't have much to do with the actual one, though.

Gods no, no new set of signs. I am sticking to Latin alphabet with suitable modifications to capture the sounds

It's not that new, actually

Spoiler :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitsa

But my reaction would be the same if it was full of these funny Cyrillic characters

Spoiler :

At least a foreigner expects it to be different. Totally different language, new alphabet. With Latin script you see familiar letters which signify totaly different sounds to what you're used to.

Anyway, for global communication it's Latin, no contest. But within our Glorious and Mighty Most Serene Slavic Republic of Heaven on Earth we'll have to use both scripts, because hell no, we won't give Cyrillic up (come on, it's a script made by Slavs for Slavs and blessed by both representatives of Jesus Christ itself ). Naturally, you won't give up your either.

 

[kochman]

So, where would the use of Latin stop? The Ural Mountains? Siberia?
Turkey?

 

[Veles]

So, where would the use of Latin stop? The Ural Mountains? Siberia?
Turkey?

Latin - globally. Cyrillic - locally, from Elbe to Vladivostok

 

[Leoreth]

For some strange reason, there is a convention in Russian, that 'ё' (sounds like yo) can be written as 'е' (ye) (an echo of the time when everything had to be handwritten, I guess). So, for example, Хрущёв is written as Хрущев, or Горбачёв as Горбачев. Then it gets transcribed into Latin as Khrushchev and Gorbachev. Frankly, I think simple phonetic transcription would be preferralbe HROO-shof, gor-ba-CHOF.

Interesting. German transcribes Gorbatschow, with the o clearly written out (don't mind the "tsch" and "w", that's to accomodate German phonetics). I've always wondered whether the "e" in Gorbachev is just to represent the usual English way of pronouncing it, or if this pronounciation was instead caused by the transcription. Apparently, the latter

We should strive for the latter, imo. But whatever.

There's not practical reason to, though. And arguing from aesthetic points of view is pointless. My aesthetic preferences are only satisfied by Tengwar, for example.

Methinks, it'll reduce itself this way naturally anyway, when more and more people of different languages start actively using it.

That's assuming everyone will go the lazy way of not learning English phonetics. People from all over the world with native languages that don't have sounds like /ð/, /θ/ or /w/ are perfectly able to learn to pronounce them, showing that that's no impossibility.

Latin has pretty simple phonetics, imo, suitable for all.

Actually, when you think of it, Italian has pretty much no weird sounds too. Perhaps it's a good candidate also? Won't copy their intonation, though.

That's true. I like how they handle vowels, too. Everything very precise and clear.

But we could do without the heavy gesticulating that goes along with it

Latin - globally. Cyrillic - locally, from Elbe to Vladivostok

Make that Oder to Vladivostok at least. The times of Cyrillic road signs east of it are over

 

[Veles]

Make that Oder to Vladivostok at least. The times of Cyrillic road signs east of it are over

Lusatia, Czechia.

That's assuming everyone will go the lazy way of not learning English phonetics. People from all over the world with native languages that don't have sounds like /ð/, /θ/ or /w/ are perfectly able to learn to pronounce them, showing that that's no impossibility.

My wild guess, is that the majority wouldn't bother.

But we could do without the heavy gesticulating that goes along with it

Sometimes that helps to express things

...My aesthetic preferences are only satisfied by Tengwar, for example.

Hehe... That reminded me of my geeky early school years. Seriousely, the next best thing the Yanks can ever do is making a film of Silmarillion

 

[Leoreth]

Lusatia

For 60,000 Sorbs?

 

[Kyriakos]

Hm, Cyrillic was not made by slavs, but by the brothers Cyril and Methodios, from my city, who were subjects of the Byzantine empire

Also i have often heard people claim ancient Greek is far superior to Latin (those who speak both obviously). Latin is the language of men, Greek of angels, as the saying goes iirc

 

[Veles]

For 60,000 Sorbs?

Yes. And all their territory, which isn't that small by European standarts.

Hm, Cyrillic was not made by slavs, but by the brothers Cyril and Methodios, from my city, who were subjects of the Byzantine empire

Also i have often heard people claim ancient Greek is far superior to Latin (those who speak both obviously). Latin is the language of men, Greek of angels, as the saying goes iirc

Though they were born in Solun' (Thessalonike), they were of Bulgarian decent, which was the reason they were sent to Moravia to teach pagans, whose language they understood.

 

[Kyriakos]

That is not certain at all, others argue they were greek. This wiki-article reflects this position by calling them "greek-byzantine" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_Cyril_and_Methodius

Saints Cyril and Methodius (Greek: Κύριλλος καὶ Μεθόδιος, Old Church Slavonic: Кѷриллъ и Меѳодїи[more]) were two Byzantine Greek brothers born in Thessaloniki in the 9th century.[3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10] They became missionaries of Christianity among the Slavic peoples of Bulgaria, Great Moravia and Pannonia. Through their work they influenced the cultural development of all Slavs, for which they received the title "Apostles to the Slavs". They are credited with devising the Glagolitic alphabet, the first alphabet used to transcribe Old Church Slavonic.[11] After their deaths, their pupils continued their missionary work among other Slavs. Both brothers are venerated in the Orthodox Church as saints with the title of "equal-to-apostles". In 1880, Pope Leo XIII introduced their feast into the calendar of the Roman Catholic Church. In 1980, Pope John Paul II declared them co-patron saints of Europe, together with Benedict of Nursia.[1

 

[Veles]

There are certain facts indicating they were Bulgarian (no links though), so I'd like to think they were Slavs anyway Not that it especially matters though. Either they were the makers of Glagolitsa, which Slavs later modified into Cyrillic, or Glagolitsa was native Slavic pre-Cyrillic alphabet.

Either way, modern Cyrillic is completely reformed compared to original and, imo, is perfectly suited to reflect Slavic phonolgy (and pretty much any language phonology as well, by the way). For example it's arguably preferable to pin-ying for Chinese transcription.

 

[Traitorfish]

Also i have often heard people claim ancient Greek is far superior to Latin (those who speak both obviously). Latin is the language of men, Greek of angels, as the saying goes iirc

And God speaks Gaelic.

 

[Agent327]

Anyway, for global communication it's Latin, no contest.

I think that ship hath sailed some time during the Middle Ages... Nowadays English stands a much better chance as a lingua franca. (O-o, Latin...)

 

[Winner]

Meh, in the end we'll all speak the language of our alien overlords (Il'lari).