Lebanon survey: 87% support Hizbollah; support for US drops dramatically

Uiler said:
87% of Lebanese support Hizbollah's actions including a bare majority of Christians - 55% and 40% of Druze. I remember from another article that support from Sunnis while lower than Shi'ites is still high - around 60-70%.

Read thoroughly before affirming. Support for Prisoner taking action, not just support !!! (that doesn't include bombing Israeli cities)

Don't have time to read through wholle thread and provide responses, maybe will but later


Oh and something else : you realise that if Lebanese proclaim they're against Hezbollah they get killed by those fanatics ???
 
Winner said:
Fact is that civilian casaulties are unavoidable, even if you have the most modern weaponry available. Israel is showing great restraint, because if they really wanted to start strategic bombardment, they could flatten entire cities and villages.

I know very little of war strategy, but how is bombing the hell out of vilages strategic bombing ???
 
ZiP! said:
Read thoroughly before affirming. Support for Prisoner taking action, not just support !!! (that doesn't include bombing Israeli cities)

Don't have time to read through wholle thread and provide responses, maybe will but later


Oh and something else : you realise that if Lebanese proclaim they're against Hezbollah they get killed by those fanatics ???

Maybe you should actually read the article yourself.

The survey showed 87 percent support for Hizbullah's retaliatory attacks on northern Israel.

The part about the support for taking prisoners is referring to an earlier survey:

The survey showed near-identical numbers as an earlier survey, published by As-Safir on March 2. That survey showed 70.9 percent support for Hizbullah operations to capture Israeli soldiers.

You do realise that Hizbollah only rules in certain parts of Lebanon. The Christian part for example and the Druze part is territory Hizbollah doesn't have much power. In fact in the early days of the war I saw quite a few quotes from Lebanese Christians criticising Hizbollah.
 
classical_hero said:
Even the UN is saying that Hizballah is hiding behind civillians and are actually proud that civillians are being killed. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060724/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_aid

Yeah, and that they're using the UN troops as shields. And some other stuff...

http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2006/07/hezbollah_using.php

Hizbullah is preventing UN representatives from entering, who are trying to help residents leave. In two villages, exchanges of fire between residents and Hizbullah have broken out.

Not to mention Hezbollah flags flying beside the UN flags. It's been plastered in just about every one of these types of threads, I don't feel like finding it at the moment.

Uiler, here's what I'd like to know. If Hezbollah doesn't go near villages, then how did those Israeli troops die in Bint Jbeil? :crazyeye:
 
Daily Star said:
The survey showed near-identical numbers as an earlier survey, published by As-Safir on March 2. That survey showed 70.9 percent support for Hizbullah operations to capture Israeli soldiers.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb

However, while 59 percent of the Druze community in March supported such operations, only 40 percent now express such support.

Christian support for capture operations rose from 48 percent to 55 percent, due likely to the Free Patriotic Movement's memorandum of understanding signed with Hizbullah.
'Bare majority of christians' is not for agreeing on terrorist attacks

Daily Star said:
The survey showed 87 percent support for Hizbullah's retaliatory attacks on northern Israel. Such a high level of support must be attributed to Hizbullah's political and military performance, in addition to a national consensus identifying Israel as Lebanon's main enemy.
They don't give you religion specific pourcentage.
Some of lebanese (among them the president) are somehow afraid of declaring on Hezbollah, in fear of retaliation.

Did you notice the newspaper you quoted is Lebanese? maybe not the best neutral information provider...
In my thread (in this forum) I could have cited like 10 references in Lebanese media to strenghen my point, but never did because I consider Lebanese media biaised (as is the media of any country involved in such a war)



Uiler said:
You do realise that Hizbollah only rules in certain parts of Lebanon. The Christian part for example and the Druze part is territory Hizbollah doesn't have much power. In fact in the early days of the war I saw quite a few quotes from Lebanese Christians criticising Hizbollah.

I'm VERY well placed to know that :lol:
Thanks for pointing that out, proud to see people still aren't associating Lebanese and Hezbollah as beeing the same.Also, only (part of) the Chya actually support hezbollah, Sunni tend to be more reserved, but I think with Israel's attack they are now more rallied with them (sadly this also applies to christians / druzes hence the poll)
And a lot of christians actually prefered Israel over Hezbollah.
In fact I think Hezbollah popularity didn't raise in lebanon, it's mostly Israel's that took a hit. So when the people choose a side...
 
classical_hero said:
Even the UN is saying that Hizballah is hiding behind civillians and are actually proud that civillians are being killed. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060724/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_aid


Well, I guess we have two sources that disagree.

Still, I think the IDF has a lot of questions to answer. Why aren't the bunkers which are the source of the missiles being targetted? Why aren't you legging it out, spreading around and searching for them and bombing them to smithereens? Why instead are you flattening random apartment blocks and bombing villages to pieces? Find those bunkers! In the caves!

It seems to me and not just me but to plenty of other people (from both the anti-and pro-war side) as I showed in another post is that part of the problem is the IDF has become big, fat and lazy. It has become American and would rather call air strikes on easy targets which may/may not have any fighters in them and may in fact be full of civilians then actually leg it out there, take the risk of significant casulties and find and destroy the missile bunkers. Sure, it's difficult, sure it's dangerous. But the missiles are your aim, the reason why you are there, not to flatten villages with airstrikes. Go out there and find them and destroy them.

As one "let's pound Lebanon" article put it, the IDF is "big, rich and dumb" and as an anti-war person put it, "The years of U.S. largesse and bloated procurement budgets, the state-of-the-art tanks and fighters, the fascination with technology and push-button war, plus the pitiful state of the Syrian Army and Air Force -- Israel's remaining conventional front-line foes -- all appear to have infected the IDF with the arrogance and complacency that plagued the United States in Vietnam."
 
There was enough support for the US so it could drop dramatically? I am shcoked!
 
ZiP! said:
I know very little of war strategy, but how is bombing the hell out of vilages strategic bombing ???

I don't understand what you're saying.

I say that Israeli bombing in Lebanon is tactical bombing, aimed at infrastructure and buildings, which can aid Hezbollah.

Strategic bombing would be an indiscriminate bombing of Lebanese cities carried out in order to cause huge material loses and civilian casaulties. It is quite clear that the current bombing belongs to the first case.
 
Cleric said:
There was enough support for the US so it could drop dramatically? I am shcoked!

Again. NOT US SUPPORT. The perception of US as a honest mediator :
DS said:
The survey showed that a large majority of Lebanese do not consider the US to be an honest mediator (89.5 percent). A similar survey conducted by the Beirut Center for Research and Information published in As-Safir on January 31 showed 38.2 percent support for the US role in Lebanon. This drop is due to the close political cooperation between the US and Israel.

Exemple : I think US' opinion is a bit biaised : they're no honest mediator. Doesn't mean I'm against the US


winner said:
The survey showed that a large majority of Lebanese do not consider the US to be an honest mediator (89.5 percent). A similar survey conducted by the Beirut Center for Research and Information published in As-Safir on January 31 showed 38.2 percent support for the US role in Lebanon. This drop is due to the close political cooperation between the US and Israel.
I thought strat bombing was more like bombing industries, not civilian habitations. My bad.
 
The lebs are deeply pissed with the isralies and the yanks? This campaign is the greatest recruiting sargent the fanatics ever had?

Pope admits catholicism shocker

Bear tells of wood-horsehockyting shame
 
shadow2k said:
Yeah, and that they're using the UN troops as shields. And some other stuff...



Not to mention Hezbollah flags flying beside the UN flags. It's been plastered in just about every one of these types of threads, I don't feel like finding it at the moment.

Uiler, here's what I'd like to know. If Hezbollah doesn't go near villages, then how did those Israeli troops die in Bint Jbeil? :crazyeye:


That is a good point. However, I have a suspicion what the article was saying is that the military bases, outposts and missile bunkers are not in the villages and unlike say Palestine whom everyone knows who the fighters are, the fighters while they live amongst civilians do not reveal their identities to anyone. So say in Palestine while everyone knows who the fighters are, where they are and where they meet and where they put their arms, in Lebanon, the Hezbollah, hide their identities, don't meet near civilians and keep their arms cache away from civilians, in order to avoid betrayal. However, the bases are close enough that they can strike Israeli troops when they attempt to enter the villages.

Hezbollah doesn't trust the civilian population and has worked very hard to evacuate as much of it as possible from the battlefield. And this is why they fight so well -- with no one to spy on them, they have lots of chances to take the Israel Defense Forces by surprise, as they have by continuing to fire rockets and punish every Israeli ground incursion.

However, because the civilians themselves don't know where the bases actually are they can't tell and warn the Israeli troops beforehand. In Palestine, Israeli informers are one of the biggest problems. It would make sense. Hizbollah is actually much much more more a professional military outfit than any of the Palestinian groups. In fact one Israeli guy posted saying it was easy to tell Hizbollah because they are running around with heavy military equipment. And he remarked on their extreme professionality. And also the Hizbollah fighting force is very small, I think it's only a couple of 1000 hard-core fighters. It's a very exclusive club.

If it is true that the military bunkers are not in the villages themselves and the villagers don't know where they are, what's the use of destroying the villages?

OTOH I did read that Bint Jbeil had a Hezbollah command and control centre in it. I don't know. I have to admit I am getting a bit confused here as to how exactly Hizbollah works. The thing about them hiding a lot more than the Palestinians and being more professional does make a lot of sense in light of other articles. And the Salon article says it's not even about Hizbollah caring about civilians. It's because they fear betrayal, which makes sense too. However, if the news isn't lying to me, Bint Jbeil had a command and control centre and the UN said Hizbollah were deliberately hiding amongst civilians. Anyway, I'm not entirely sure now.

The other thing, just because there's a Hizbollah flag flying in front of something doesn't mean that it's a military base. Hizbollah has vast network of social services through the South and also a political wing. There are hospitals with Hizbollah flags flying in front of them and probably schools too and orphanages. For example, those pictures of the Hizbollah flag next to the UN one? It could easily be a Hizbollah run school or hospital or mosque next to a UN outpost. Just because a Hizbollah flag is flying doesn't mean it is a military base.
 
Uiler said:
From all I heard, the Hizbollah fighters hide in bunkers mostly in the caves, underground tunnels, hills, forests. So why the hell are the Israelis bombing civilian apartment blocks in the cities when the fighters don't even stay there. It's like bombing Kabul to get at the Taliban whose fighters are in the countryside and mountains. The Hizbollah politicians and civilian sympathizers do live in said apartment blocks, but as the article says, they don't have much communications with the fighters who are paranoid about leaks. If you want to get the fighters you attack the cave and underground bunkers. Seems to me that the Israelis have absolutely no idea where they are and are either (1) venting their fustrations on civilians and/or (2) hoping they'll somehow get lucky and maybe by some fortuitous chance they will by sheer luck strike a Hizbollah fighter and/or (3) hoping if they hit the civilians enough they will tell the Israelis where they are which they can't anyway because none of the Hizbollah members who are not fighters actually know where the bunkers are due to the fighting branch's paranoia. Either way, there's not much tactical about it.

Good note Uiler :)

By bombing civilian buildings in Lebanon it seems more probable that they aim to provide some sort of image to their public that they are doing something in relatiation to the katyusha attacks, with having very little actual chance of hitting anyone related to Hezbollah though.
It is, once more, very impressive that propaganda manages in a few days to feed us the mandra "certain parts of Beirut= terrorist strongholds".

The underlying problem, though, is as always the very unhealthy relation of the US government with Israel. This has to stop sometime, although it would need some more carefull examination of judaism, zionism, the popular image of the jewish people, and other false concepts.
 
Winner said:
I don't understand what you're saying.

I say that Israeli bombing in Lebanon is tactical bombing, aimed at infrastructure and buildings, which can aid Hezbollah.

Strategic bombing would be an indiscriminate bombing of Lebanese cities carried out in order to cause huge material loses and civilian casaulties. It is quite clear that the current bombing belongs to the first case.

Actually, that's not correct:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing

Strategic bombing is a military strategy used in a total war style campaign that attempts to destroy the economic ability of a nation-state to wage war. It is a systematically organized and executed attack from the air. It is different from the tactical event of strategic bombing, which involves strategic bomber aircraft, cruise missiles, or fighter-bomber aircraft attacking targets determined during the organization of the strategic bombing campaign.

The distinction between tactical and strategic bombing can be easily blurred. Strategic bombing missions usually attack targets such as factories, railroads, oil refineries and cities, while tactical bombing missions attack targets such as troop concentrations, command and control facilities, airfields, and ammunition dumps. The act of traveling to the target and dropping bombs, even if part of a strategic bombing campaign, is a tactical event. Strategic bombers tend to be large, long-range aircraft; tactical bombers are mostly relatively small. However, the distinction does not lie in the aircraft type used or the assigned target, it lies in the purpose of the attack. Tactical bombing aims to defeat individual enemy military forces. Strategic bombing aims to undermine a nation-state's ability to wage war, historically as a part of a total war strategy.

Israel is targetting the infrastructure of lebanon - electricity, roads, factories, civilian airfields, cities etc. If they were bombing say Hizbollah missile bunkers then it would be tactical. Bombing the basic infrastructure of a country and its cities which civilians also rely on is considered strategic. Bombing only clear military targets is tactical. If you wipe out the entire electricity supply in a country like Israel has done that's strategic. If you wipe out the lines supplying electricity to military bases that's tactical. Bombing cities and roads to destroy the cities or to destroy the entire transport infrastructure of the country is strategic. Bombing a factory in a city making ammunition (and *only* that factory not the random factory on the other side of town as well) or bombing a road convoy of soldiers is tactical. Basically, attacking cities without a clear military target and wiping out basic infrastructure like electricity and roads is strategic.

What Israel is doing in Lebanon is strategic bombing, not tactical.

Other people who agree with me:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060720.wbombanal0720/BNStory/Front

“This is a classic strategic bombing campaign,” said Stephen Biddle, a former head of military studies at the U.S. Army War College now at the Council on Foreign Relations. “What the Israelis are trying to do is pressure others into solving their problem for them, hence the targeting of civilian infrastructure.”

James Dobbins, a former administration envoy to Afghanistan who now heads military analysis for the Rand Corp., said choice of targets by Israel was the key and may be misdirected.

“The military rationale seems rather thin, since many of the targets have no conceivable relationship to Hezbollah,” he said.

“The Israelis face their classic problem,” he said. “They cannot punish Hezbollah, which has no physical structure to destroy.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/24/AR2006072400807_pf.html

According to retired Israeli army Col. Gal Luft, the goal of the campaign is to "create a rift between the Lebanese population and Hezbollah supporters." The message to Lebanon's elite, he said, is this: "If you want your air conditioning to work and if you want to be able to fly to Paris for shopping, you must pull your head out of the sand and take action toward shutting down Hezbollah-land."
 
Uiler said:
Actually, that's not correct:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing

Israel is targetting the infrastructure of lebanon - electricity, roads, factories, civilian airfields, cities etc. If they were bombing say Hizbollah missile bunkers then it would be tactical. Bombing the basic infrastructure of a country and its cities which civilians also rely on is considered strategic. Bombing only clear military targets is tactical.

What Israel is doing in Lebanon is strategic bombing, not tactical.

Now, it isn't. You have to change the definition when talking about this type of conflicts, I mean state vs. non-state actor (guerilla/terrorist movement). Definition you've found is a definition of strategic bombing in war between two states.

To use parts of this definition:

...Strategic bombing missions usually attack targets such as factories, railroads, oil refineries and cities, while tactical bombing missions attack targets such as troop concentrations, command and control facilities, airfields, and ammunition dumps...

When fighting against guerilla group like Hezbollah or Hamas, enemy "troops" are concentrated in urban areas, command and control facilities are located in (or under) civilian buildings and airfields aren't necessary because of utilization of missiles or other weapons of terror.

Strategic bombing is a military strategy used in a total war style campaign that attempts to destroy the economic ability of a nation-state to wage war.

This demonstrates what I am talking about - there is no state-against-state war in Lebanon. Israelis aren't trying to destroy Lebanese economic capacity to wage war, because Lebanon doesn't wage any war against Israel and doesn't have any such capacities anyway.

Clearly, this definition of strategic bombing isn't applicable to the current situation. On the other hand, Hezbollah's missile strikes on northern Israel bear a strong resemblance to German or Allied attempts to undermine enemy morale by killing civilians by terror bombings of residential areas. Fortunately, Hezbollah doesn't have such capacities, otherwise the northern Israel would be reduced to ruins already.
 
ThePrankMonkey said:
come and do the dirty work we are too scared to come out from under our rocks to do for ourselves.

basically kill yourself because we asked you to. seems ******ed to kill yourself when living means you can kill more of your enemy.

no wonder they never make any headway!

morons.

Yep clever and well organised, but still if you look deep deep down behind the propaganda at what they truly stand for and what they try to do by manipulations you see a finely honed piece of idiocy statring back at you.

That said though the Israelis are acting like idiots at the moment too, this is a war that has created partisan support for a terrorist organisation out of a general dislike for Hezbolah and a tenuous support for their government, talk about cocking up.

Winner said:
Then they are more delusional than I thought. Israel should expand the bombardment and ground operations in southern Lebanon to return them back into reality.

@winner: bad luck mate, Israel is continuing small land raids and air bombings, and is counting out a large land invasion, it seems, this ones going to fizzle out maybe? Although I'm not counting out anything ATM, where once you could of expected reason from Israel, now I'm seeing a temper tantrum, a loss of control and a biterness at the situation, understandable but I don't really think it's helping much, once a cease fire is in place I'd like to see what happens next.

Winner said:
I don't understand what you're saying.

I say that Israeli bombing in Lebanon is tactical bombing, aimed at infrastructure and buildings, which can aid Hezbollah.

Strategic bombing would be an indiscriminate bombing of Lebanese cities carried out in order to cause huge material loses and civilian casaulties. It is quite clear that the current bombing belongs to the first case.

Grey area as well, most people see the bombing as indiscriminate, not deliberate but clearly little regard is being given to civillian casualties, that is not a matter of debate, and its pissing the world off, well except the US government but they're all idiots right?:lol:

Edited: because it doesn't ,make sense without Winners quote, which if forgot alright? So I'm human, so shoot me, f**k this! I'm off to make lunch, don't look at me like that you started it :rolleyes: pah!!
 
Winner said:
Now, it isn't. You have to change the definition when talking about this type of conflicts, I mean state vs. non-state actor (guerilla/terrorist movement). Definition you've found is a definition of strategic bombing in war between two states.

To use parts of this definition:



When fighting against guerilla group like Hezbollah or Hamas, enemy "troops" are concentrated in urban areas, command and control facilities are located in (or under) civilian buildings and airfields aren't necessary because of utilization of missiles or other weapons of terror.



This demonstrates what I am talking about - there is no state-against-state war in Lebanon. Israelis aren't trying to destroy Lebanese economic capacity to wage war, because Lebanon doesn't wage any war against Israel and doesn't have any such capacities anyway.

Clearly, this definition of strategic bombing isn't applicable to the current situation. On the other hand, Hezbollah's missile strikes on northern Israel bear a strong resemblance to German or Allied attempts to undermine enemy morale by killing civilians by terror bombings of residential areas. Fortunately, Hezbollah doesn't have such capacities, otherwise the northern Israel would be reduced to ruins already.


Yes, it is based on state-state actions. You're smart. Take the common sense adaption. Israel may not trying to completely destroy Lebanon's (the country) capacity to fight but they're definitely trying to destroy Hizbollah's and using similar tactics as if Hizbollah was a state. Cutting off the entire electricity to the region. Destroying the transport infrastructure. Attacking cities. I've heard they're even planning to destroy the communications infrastructure next (cell phones) which of course will entail blowing up a lot of civilian buildings since that's where the towers are located. What part of this is not a normal part of strategic bombing against a state? They are trying to completely devaste Hizbollah's capacity to wage war no matter the consequences for the civilian population. In fact this is an issue a lot of people are having with Israel. It is treating this current war as if Hizbollah was a state which it is not. This is not a 4th-generation style war that Israel is prosecuting.
 
On an interesting note, apparently the decision to go to war against Lebanon was made by the Israeli government in only a few hours after the soldier abductions:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/741795.html

On July 12, 2006, the Israeli government decided to bring about "a new order in Lebanon" by means of a massive military attack, which would cause the Lebanese government to disarm Hezbollah, or at least to remove it from the border with Israel and to deploy the Lebanese Army in its place. Like the expanded goals of "Lebanon War I," an attempt is being made here to reshape Lebanon's fragile political order by means of force.

In the history of the relationship between the political and military leaderships of Israel, the government has never made such a significant decision so quickly, operating in crisis mode just a few hours after the kidnapping of the soldiers. Under these circumstances, the military contingency plan was the main plan presented to the ministers, if not the only one. As absurd as it may sound, the government decision to embark on the Lebanon War I in 1982 was the result of a longer and more orderly decision-making process.

An expedited discussion in the cabinet does not enable an examination of non-military options - or, alternatively, a discussion of the full significance of a military operation and a positing of realistic political goals. The accelerated process did not enable the ministers to discuss the practicality of the demand to deploy the Lebanese Army, part of which is Shiite, along the border, as a force that is capable of imposing its authority on the independent Shiite militias that will remain after the dismantling of Hezbollah, if it is in fact dismantled.

It is doubtful whether the significance of the two possible results of the Israeli military blow - a change in the fragile inter-ethnic balance of power in Lebanon as a result of the disintegration of Hezbollah as the center of power that will not be replaced by another, or, alternatively, its success in surviving the attack - could be discussed in such a pressured time framework.

The lack of time also prevented the possibility of looking into the diplomatic option of the "package deal" for implementing UN Security Council Resolution No. 1559; this option was proposed by the UN a few months earlier, and included a deployment of the Lebanese Army in the south in exchange for Israeli concessions.

It is also reasonable to assume that under such conditions, the Foreign Ministry and the National Security Council cannot present alternative viewpoints. And, of course, in all the excitement, the Sharon-Mofaz-Ya'alon doctrine of restraint was in effect delegitimized, with no serious attempt made to examine whether it was worth preserving.

Even if we assume that the price to be paid by the home front was clear to the cabinet, it has exposed the citizenry to real danger in exchange for what has been presented as the removal of a future threat - but without providing a possibility of conducting a public discussion on it.

Armies are criticized because the excess of power that they accumulate enables them to dictate steps of political significance during a time of crisis. In these situations, military contingency plans become the principal alternative available to the politicians, which is why they tend to accept the army's viewpoint. But this time we have before us a particularly extreme case. Not only was the military plan the only one, but the political leadership voluntarily relinquished its duty to discuss it thoroughly. This places political thinking, to which military thinking is supposed to be subordinate, in a particularly inferior situation.
 
Uiler said:
Yes, it is based on state-state actions. You're smart. Take the common sense adaption. Israel may not trying to completely destroy Lebanon's (the country) capacity to fight but they're definitely trying to destroy Hizbollah's and using similar tactics as if Hizbollah was a state. Cutting off the entire electricity to the region. Destroying the transport infrastructure. Attacking cities. I've heard they're even planning to destroy the communications infrastructure next (cell phones) which of course will entail blowing up a lot of civilian buildings since that's where the towers are located. What part of this is not a normal part of strategic bombing against a state? They are trying to completely devaste Hizbollah's capacity to wage war no matter the consequences for the civilian population.

This is a matter of interpretation. You want to liken Hezbollah to a state inside Lebanon. That can indeed be a viable approach, it has its pros and cons. But I can as well say that Hezbollah is more like an standing army and suddenly, Israeli bombing of Hezbollah-related targets turns out to be more like tactical bombing aimed at troop concentrations and command and control facilities, as the definition says.

I won't say that your interpretative scheme is entirely wrong, I just tend to disagree with it.

In fact this is an issue a lot of people are having with Israel. It is treating this current war as if Hizbollah was a state which it is not. This is not a 4th-generation style war that Israel is prosecuting.

In my opinion, it is treating it as it was an army in the field. Unfortunately, the equipment of this "army" is usually also a Lebanese civilian infrastructure.
 
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