Let's Play: Deity BC Space: Strategies from a 10 year veteran

[Bandobras Took]

Many people know concepts; it's the truly great players that make them go so far the game breaks.

More seriously, knowing a concept is different from mastering a concept. Most people knew tech bulbing way back when; nobody had thought it through enough to come up with the Engineering Bulb.

 

[WastinTime]

@WT Do you think we could have leveraged the WBE more than we did in the recent SGOTM? What would the trade off have been?

That game also had earlier wonders pre-built. The all important Oracle was gone. So was Mids, etc. We tried to work Moai a bit more than normal. Then in a blink of eye, we were on the final tech rush to Railroad around T122 or so. We had 30+ cities to conquer in the same short timeframe which gave tons of gold. Four armies going different directions simultaneously. And the maintenance was only Monarch level. Cash wasn't needed so we built units instead of WBE. We were doing over 1500 bpt in the BC years. I had never experienced that before on normal speed.

 

[WastinTime]

Back to the action. Lots of excitement.

MarbleStart Turnset T116-129

Oporto Hamburg have been whipped until they're angry at size 1
Their last gifts to the empire were a whipped Axe followed immediately by a whipped Q for double overflow. That gives me about 300 gold to keep me afloat.

Both cities are gifted to Washington

117 DoW Washington (Darius, Roos) are annoyed.

Darius has archer + immortal roaming towards/near Cuzco. And the other 4 Immortals + 2 archers remain in his nearest city. About 5 turns from reaching me. I start an emergency spear in Cuzco just in case I have to whip it. I plan for another 3 or so spears in the north. I'll whip Justin's old cities down to 1 if I have to. This whole problem is likely because of that one extra worker steal on Fred way back. Just enough to make Darius Annoyed.

T118 Darius just demanded Masonry. I normally deny most of these demands, but give it this time. He doesn't have a coastal city for GLH anyway. (I get : +1 trade +1 you helped us) Now he Cautious and, more importantly 10 turns peace!

I can now focus on Ottomans and extracting Priesthood from Justin. But I will need to get a spear or two ASAP past Darius to Edirne to deal with Darius later.

Ottomans have 1 archer defending Edirne and 1 in Istanbul . And he's not building an archer. He doesn't even have AH or mining--much less BW or slavery.
I'll give him Mining so he can send all his workers to his 2 golds. I move a stack out after I held it back a couple turns because of the ongoing Darius threat.

Willy spreads Budda to Cuzco (expands borders 1t sooner = earlier marble = 1 less worker needed)

Recapture Oporto and Hamburg. anger free.

T119 2nd capture of Munich (keep)
3rd capture of Orleans (keep)

I'm starting to bleeding cash faster and faster. 300 in the bank @ -20gpt. (strike in 15 turns)
Starting to worry. I need to sit at 0% research and burn cash until the first Wonder Bread Economy payout. So far, I've invested zero in that, but it's very early.

I was about to give Suleiman Mining so he would move his workers to mine the gold (where I can capture them too) when lo and behold! I see that he is willing to attack Lincoln, Justin, or Washington. He wouldn't do that just for Mining alone would he? Yes! he would with Wash because I'm at war too (lowers cost).
Ok, so 1) I don't care if Washington is more mad at me for bringing in a war ally. 2) Almost everyone likes Washington, so this will make them like Sule less. 3) that could mean they won't give me -1 for declaring on a friend when I DoW Sule in a couple turns.
4) I get +1 shared war with Sule in case I ever want to repair our relationship.
Sweet! Darius cancelled his war plans I suppose one spear is enough for now, so I change build plans. Problem solved!

T120 Stone online! Let the games begin!
Constantinople:

hip OF + chop -> GWall


T121
Chicago:

hip OF -> GWall

Vicky has Ivory
I scan Vicky's land and see that she will have cow very soon. I don't want her to cancel Ivory, so I woo her with Gold and give her a case of Crabs


T122 Cuzco builds GW for 1t. Borders expand to include Marble. I'm planning a 3-worker, 6t quarry (18t total). I could have done a fort already and had marble working this turn, but since I don't have Priesthood, what's the point?

Getting more conerned: 250 gold in the bank at -30gpt!! (8 turns until strike. It was 15 turns to strike just 3 turns ago.)


T123 New York:

hip OF->GW (no forests rt now, needs border pop)

Roosevelt should finish the Great Wall soon .


Here's the battlefield NE of Cuzco (from several turns ago):



In the SW corner of the map section above, I own some Justin's cities and have been waiting thru 10 turns peace after getting Poly free in the deal. I gave Nicaea to the Ottomans.

5 units are approaching Edirne which managed to have a 2nd defender move in from the north.
But it's still flat land 20% and the new one is not fortified.
Since Sule can't whip, I DoW'd a couple turns ago and grab his worker along with Nicaea.
I took the city 1 turn before the archer defender arrived
Then I let the archer follow me back towards Edirne. Once he entered Darius' city, I could kill him at like 98% with my City Raider unit
Immediately gifted Nicaea to Justin for several good reasons.
1) I want extra war success to get Priesthood free
2) I hope he'll send a defender to get ambushed
3) saves on # of cities maint cost

T124 Peace deal ends just in time. I DoW and ambush Justin's defender at Nicaea-2NW and send my 2nd stack to get his newest coastal capital.

T125 My healer can use is 2 movement to grab Nicaea and then move west to another Justin city.

Edirne falls easily with 97% on that 2nd defender.

Those 2 Axes I whipped to get cash and the spear I whipped out of fear are now moving next to Justin's 5th (of 6) city for a stack of 6. Note to self: play more IMP leaders. They really make lots of cities.


T126
Lincoln should connect a 2nd fur soon and trade it to me

Nicaea gifted to Lincoln. I want this city pretty soon, but just can't afford it.
Cash: 296 at -36gpt if I keep... -30gpt with gift. (conquest gold helped: about 10 turns to strike)

T127 Judaism founded somewhere

T128
I get Justin's city but I take heavy losses (three--including one Axe). That's a lot for a city with 0% culture on flat land when only one archer of three is fortified.

That many losses means he won't talk yet which is a shame cus I just finished the Marble quarry

I did get 66 gold and 2 corralled 2 more workers.

NewYork get's +1 for the long war with Washington. Ruins my plans for that city. I may have to cease fire. update: no, I'll wait til next turn and get peace+PH from Justin. That should get the happy back.

16 cities, 16 workers

I gift Antioch to Lincoln also. It only has jungled rice in the first ring and no forests.

T129
Free Priesthood for 10 turns peace with Justin
NewYork is happy about that.

Since we're in an unending war, I allowed Washington to build a cottage, and now I pillage it for 9g. (rinse, repeat)

Now that you're caught up on the action, I'll take a step back and post plans and describe city builds.

Just noticed Willy has Priesthood, but no marble and doesn't have any big builds started.

Roosevelt has 369h in Great Wall

Still holding at 290g and -30gpt (0% research)

 

[georgjorge]

Will be interesting to see how much gold you can generate from those early wonders! And I still find this heavy city gifting to be a very crazy concept.

It seems you pay a lot of attention to every detail (resource trades, individual unit movement) so how do you ever finish a game such as that Sushi score game in less than a lifetime?

 

[Kaitzilla]

If I simply told you in 5 words or less what the basic tactic is, you'd be unimpressed. It's like being told about how the Culture Espionage mission can help win a culture game. You'd be like: Ya, I know about that. It's not until you take the culture mission to the extreme and adjust your whole game to amplify it that you make it game changing. Focusing on Wonder Bread affected my whole game. Tech path, tiles worked, improvements I prioritize, buildings I build and which ones I skip--including skipping many wonders (national and world) that used to be must-haves.

!!!!!

I never would have guessed Wonder Fail Gold + Extreme total commitment.

That's what is powering the impossible T281 Sushi date?
And the even more impossible DC Deity space?!

I can't imagine the sweat of maybe missing Oracle while building it 8 times for a 1500BC Currency attempt.
Or giving up that many hammers which could be used on troops in the early and mid game.
Or waiting and praying that the AI will finish the appropriate wonder to release the gold to you.

WBE is something I've never tried because I thought it would never be superior under any conditions compared to max conquest.
All my wonder failgold was pursued haphazardly and rarely methodically.
The planning of an entire empire around it boggles my mind.
One would have to be extremely good at war to make this strategy shine properly due to limited reinforcements.

 

[WastinTime]

Here's a great example of how Wonder Bread has caused me to rethink my entire game. Many players know/agree that when playing a game like this, the holy grail has always been Oracle->Currency. Once you do that, you can trade tech for gold, resources for gpt, build wealth, and extra trade rts. A couple times I've taken Metal Casting, but only if Mansa is researching Currency already.

But now that Wonder Bread provides thousands of gold the turn you get Oracle, I'm preferring Metal Casting (for IND, half-price forges, maybe Colossus). Currency is a cheaper tech and more importantly, you get 40% bonus researching it cus you have 2 pre-reqs (math and alpha).

I can't imagine the sweat of maybe missing Oracle while building it 8 times for a 1500BC Currency attempt.

I'm planning to build Oracle in 15 cities around T150 (2000 BC). That should be around 400 gold per city = 6000 gold
Except for Liz and Peter, I can keep an eye on the AI so I'll know if they're working on Oracle. Even if I were to lose it to Liz or something, it wouldn't be the end of the world. I still would get thousands of gold.

Or giving up that many hammers which could be used on troops in the early and mid game.

I have like 20 quechua, axes, spear. I'll whip several chariots->Oracle. Way more army than I need with 6 AI already beaten down. New captures are now very far from the captial (read very expensive to keep) It's a good time in the game to slow military (only cus my map is so 'small'). Spark it up again with Horse Archers or Knights or Maces.

Or waiting and praying that the AI will finish the appropriate wonder to release the gold to you.

Amen brother. It'd be nice if I could start research soon on Currency, but I'm impatiently waiting for Roosevelt to finish the GreatWall. but as I mentioned there are some self-built wonders sprinkled in the timeline to keep you going.

 

[WastinTime]

That's what is powering the impossible T281 Sushi date?
And the even more impossible DC Deity space?!

I love doing the 'impossible' ever since I won an 'Always Peace' conquest victory (no war allowed!)
and an One-City-Challenge culture game (culture requires 3 legendary cities ).

OCC domination is still on my list.

 

[Kaitzilla]

How about Palace? Can't you just build it infinitely many times without any tricks?

That is a nice thought MkLh, I'll have to check on it later.

The main idea is that the city that completes the National Wonder is crappy enough that it can be given away without feeling too much pain to a weak AI (far away helps too).
Then other cities put overflows into the Wonder every turn and the moment the player needs some cash, they can capture the gifted city, reap tons of fail gold, then declare a cease fire and give it away again to repeat the process.

Since the the capital (with Palace) can't be given away to begin this fortuitous cycle, it's not ideal for Infinitely building fail gold.

Regarding infinitely building the same National Wonder many times, I don't feel it's been fully explored yet.
Will Aggressive civs give away their Heroic Epic city for 3 or 4 turns for a huge gold boost if the proper whips and chops are lined up?
Will Philosophical civs do the same thing with their National Epic city? (Library is a pretty common building to build even if not half price)



Now for plans for future abuse, who can say where it will end?
It was recently noticed that a city full of buildings could be given away and then recaptured the same turn with a 2 move unit and no buildings or pop was lost.

Here is 1 building lost (Library) and no pop for 10 anger removal.
The 2nd time I tried it elsewhere, I had no building or pop losses.
Still a mystery to me as to why 33%?, 50%?, or whatever the rate of captured buildings lost in a city didn't apply.
Does it have something to do with 100% city culture or recapturing same turn as city gift bypassing Revolt?
Did I only lose the Library because it was a culture building?
If cities recaptured the same turn they are gifted only lose a Library/Theatre/etc., I'll take that trade all day to remove 10 whip or 21 draft anger.

Does that make Nationalism the most powerful tech in the game now?
It enables Drafting for instant troops, the -3 anger penalty no longer matters if you give all your cities to a 1-city AI properly and take them back immediately with a DOW.
The Hermitage can be abused like crazy to get unending waterfalls of gold. (Small enough to be easily completed, big enough to fit lots of fail gold)
Hell, I even whipped cities twice to fit twice as much fail gold into Hermitage each turn since it was so good.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I love doing the 'impossible' ever since I won an 'Always Peace' conquest victory (no war allowed!)
and an One-City-Challenge culture game (culture requires 3 legendary cities ).

OCC domination is still on my list.

1) That's a lot of culture flipping!
2) One city can win culture? Wow
3) Good heavens, even with vassals (good luck getting those) covering the whole world, you'd still have only 50% land. Permanent Alliance? Some new deviltry?

117 DoW Washington (Darius, Roos) are annoyed.

Darius has archer + immortal roaming towards/near Cuzco. And the other 4 Immortals + 2 archers remain in his nearest city. About 5 turns from reaching me. I start an emergency spear in Cuzco just in case I have to whip it. I plan for another 3 or so spears in the north. I'll whip Justin's old cities down to 1 if I have to. This whole problem is likely because of that one extra worker steal on Fred way back. Just enough to make Darius Annoyed.

O_o
I've had countless games end like that, One Stolen Worker Too Far.

 

[WastinTime]

Will Philosophical civs do the same thing with their National Epic city? (Library is a pretty common building to build even if not half price)

Libraries are always destroyed on re-capture. So are barracks (Heroic Epic) (edit: wait, not sure about barracks)

It's the fact that you have enough culture to avoid revolt. Buildings only get destroyed along with revolt--except for most culture buildings and rax.

 

[WastinTime]

I've had countless games end like that, One Stolen Worker Too Far.

Mansa is also annoyed now too and that makes him worthless for tech trading . I could always gift him Math to get Cautious, but then what would I trade with? Maybe religion will save me. The whole continent is converting to Buddhism thanks to Willy's spreading. If Mansa switches, I"ll probably take Buddha too.

The other thing I do is try to keep a resource trade open, but it takes 50 turns to get '+1 appreciate resources'. Of course, you know the shortcut there... Give 5 resources for 10 turns (or some variation of that)

I didn't want to just gift away all my extra resources just yet tho. I want some to trade for Fur, and I needed 2 for Ivory. then Gems? silver?

 

[Mitchum]

Game seems to be going well. I'm looking forward to seeing how well WBE gets you out of the economic pit you're in. Most games would have had to stop conquest several cities ago to survive so I guess this is where WBE shines. It's let's you REX beyond the point that you normally could without it.

That situation with Mansa is a bit dicey. You need him to be your tech trading partner... Can you see his research yet?

Do you still have plans to start your over-seas exploration/settling timed with the GLH? I'm not sure how soon that starts (or if you even have Sailing yet).

By the way, why do you trim your screen shots? It's nice to see the mini-map, scoreboard, city count, etc. Trimming them actually takes more effort, no?

Can you post a couple of demo screens showing a few key cities, the tech situation and the diplomatic conditions?

Looking forward to hearing your pending plans.

 

[WastinTime]

By the way, why do you trim your screen shots?

Funny, I was just going to ask if everyone would rather have the full screen. I thought it would be hard to read. I use a 3440 x 1440 ultra-wide. I post one of each below.

You need him to be your tech trading partner... Can you see his research yet?

I've been watch Mansa's research for it seems like 100 turns. He was on Alpha when I traded him that. He's now got Iron(14). That problem has a couple solutions that I listed. The real problem comes if he chooses to prepare for war on me.

Do you still have plans to start your over-seas exploration/settling timed with the GLH?

I got sailing 'way back' on T115. I have decided to extreme rush the GLH for the boost it gives, so I will have a workboat, settler, and galley near the Paris double seafood spot all about the same time GLH completes.

Here is New York on T130:

GLH is not started yet, zero hammers. but don't think I haven't been preparing for it.
As the signpost says, borders just expanded this turn.
I'm going to complete the Horse pasture, then I'll have 6 hpt (which is 9hpt for GLH). Only 50% bonus here. Nothing for stone/marble.

That would take 67 turns to complete at that rate. GLH is 600h

I should be able to complete GLH in ~7 turns timed with the wb, settler, galley
How is that possible?
- horse was partially complete by Washington. 6 turns left. So 3 workers next turn will finish it
T131:

Can you even read that? I have 3h in GLH.
- All three forests are partially chopped they need about 2 turns each (90 x 3 x 1.5 = 405h)
- I have a galley at 8/100 ready for a 2pop whip .
- City grows in 3 turns (even working the horse instead of lake)
- whip galley on 5th turn ((6h + 94h OF) x 1.5 = 150h)
- OF -> GLH

(I think GLH will be 1 turn later than that because this is my newly created Plan B. My Plan A used a workboat whip which has 4h)


New development...

T130 Vicky, who's been in war prep forever. With early BFC Copper. Declares War!!!

 

[Izuul]

.... but it's on somebody else. Right?

 

[LowtherCastle]

.... but it's on somebody else. Right?

On herself. Brexit.

 

[Mitchum]

On herself. Brexit.

You're right, WT. Those screen shots are hard to read. Can you just get a less-wide-screen monitor for your viewers? I can easily see what you likely would have included in the trimmed the photo and if I squint just right, it looks like have 5h in the GLH. Of course, I can tell that the LH is already done (both by food in ocean and in the city building pane which is more than your trimmed photo would have shown. I say to do what's easiest for you. Trim or not.

 

[WastinTime]

.... but it's on somebody else. Right?

Can't fool you
It wasn't my intention to fool you guys, I just wanted you to feel that scary moment when the trumpets of war go off in-game.
As pretty much expected, she declared on Roosevelt, her closest neighbor.

 

[georgjorge]

At which point to you go from heavy wonder-whipping mode to a more traditional hammer economy - right when you get to Mining/Sushi or much later? So when do you permanently (not just for 6 turns) switch to Caste?

 

[WastinTime]

At which point to you go from heavy wonder-whipping mode to a more traditional hammer economy - right when you get to Mining/Sushi or much later? So when do you permanently (not just for 6 turns) switch to Caste?

I'll still need a big Wonder Bread boost after corps. The hard push is not over until you get Assembly Line for factory/power.
I'm not sure I'd ever switch to fully 'traditional' hammer economy. It will always be better to continue WB Economy than build wealth.

Caste won't be permanent. I'm planning to do mostly Caste somewhere around T210-270, but I need some slavery in there and I need slavery once I get Mining Inc.

 

[WastinTime]

Oracle Master Plan

The 'slow' plan is to put Oracle in NewYork to mix with the GLH GPP. This will be my 1st GP at 300gpp.
Oracle Target T146 or T147...unless I send 2-3 workers to chop Staten Island, because Oracle needs/wants to be rushed.
Nets about 5500 gold in the 13 failgold cities since most of them will be around 440/450h.

2nd thoughts on the length of the plan:
(thinking out loud)
I'd love to impress ya'all with this tight plan and max $$$, but I'm struggling with whether it's smart to go with 0% research after GreatWall gold runs out until T147.
If I fire off Oracle->MC as early as T140. That means I can start forges 7 turns earlier and finish Currency 7 turns earlier, etc.
At my expected bpt rate, those 7 turns of lost research would put me behind ~1400 beakers.

But, if I cut 7 turns, I only get a little less than 3000 gold which is only lasts for 15 turns of research (-200 gpt) before I'm out of money again.
I have no idea if there will be an opportunity to collect failgold in that short timeframe. I'm not finishing any wonders then other than HangingG which is no good for failgold because of Aqueducts.

I'm leaning towards the 5500g. I have to remind myself that in previous games, I barely even have Alpha by T147. And I would normally run 0% research til at least T155.


Here's exactly where the whip, chop, and Oracle build goes over the next 15 turns...

Cities are listed in the order they will be whipped, then chopped, starting this turn:

Berlin
T132: at size 3, 1 whip wb + chop1 Oracle

Then mini Hanging Gardens plan (and a little Mids estimate)
at size 4, 2 whip forge (no OF)
at size 4, 2 whip Aqu (95 OF)
chop2,3,4 -> HangingG T161
100+ OF -> Mids
T184+: at size 5, 2-whip galley?
chop5, 6 -> Mids (complete ~T190)

Hamburg
T133 whip chariot -> chop Oracle

Cuzco
T134 2-whip Library -> chop Oracle

Chicago
T135 whip wb-> (borders expand to include forest) chop Oracle

Oporto
T134 work food, not copper
T136 whip chariot -> chop Oracle

Munich
137 size 1 = no whip
T138 Chop Oracle

Thess
T138 whip spear -> chop Oracle

Lisbon
132 Settler
139 2-whip lighthouse + chop Oracle

Constantinople
T140 whip spear, chop Oracle

Adrian
141 whip wb + chop Oracle

Paris
142 2whip library, chop Oracle

Orleans
143 whip chariot
144 (borders expand to include forest) chop Oracle

New York
(has GLH)
T144 whip galley -> T145 chop Oracle, T146 complete, some cash comes in.
T147 library (for scientists to get GP)

Edirne (from Sule) has double gold coming, plus corn, horse, several floodplains and several cottages.
I really don't want to whip this. I also don't have any workers up there and I think I'd rather chop the library here.
In other words, it's cut from the Oracle plan.

Recently captured Istanbul is in resistance until T137. It's size 4, so I could 2-whip a galley T138. OF in Oracle T139 or any turn after that.
I might get a chop too. Would delay Oracle until T147.