Let's Read the Bible Once

[Borachio]

Asherah.

 

[JollyRoger]

That is because man's sin caused the whole of creation to be under bondage. Romans 8:19-22 clearly state that the whole of creation is under bondage and is waiting for redemption that is to come.

Paul's BDSM ramblings are too much of an inconsistent hodgepodge to take seriously. Good thing his writings are in the public domain or E.L. James would possibly be in trouble for copyright infringement.

 

[Berzerker]

Saying that humans did not die, is the same thought process that satan held. It was not an immediate death, but humans did loose immortality. Meaning that now they were condemned to death. They would not live forever as they were created to do. That there was a tree that allowed that is proof. Continuing to eat from that tree in a fallen condition would afford eternal life.

Hmm...never considered the possibility Adam and Eve were already eating from the Tree of Life and had to continue or lose their longer life spans. Here is the text from NIV:

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Sounds like they hadn't partaken of the Tree of Life yet, but it could mean they had and were still mortal and God was cutting them off. I dont know that other myths about the Tree of Life say it must be continually eaten, once was usually enough.

Nevertheless, they didn't die the day they ate the fruit much less after merely touching it, and when God reports the incident to his friends he doesn't mention his warning. He practically quotes the Serpent's prediction and continued mortality is the punishment.

Knowing good and evil is just having knowledge of a depraved nature. If there was no depraved nature then there would not be any difference between good and evil. We have no concept of that.

We became like God, to know good and evil. I take that to mean we departed from the animals. And nakedness, being ashamed and the sewing of fig leaves suggest something about procreation, maybe God didn't want too many people in his Garden.

God's pronunciation of death was that they now had the penalty of death waiting to be executed on them. Whenever someone is punished to death by the courts, they don't die right then and then, but that means from that time onwards their ultimate fate would be death. That is the same for Adam and Eve and everyone who descended from them that we are just waiting for the time when God finally executes the final order. Adam and Eve did eventually die just as God had said would happen.

They died centuries later, the warning from God was immediate death. I could believe your interpretation if God mentioned it while reporting to his friends. But God echoes what the Serpent said, no mention of Adam and Eve dying. They didn't die from obtaining knowledge, they died because they were mortal and God denied them the Tree of Life as part of the punishment for their disobedience and "fear" of what they'd be able to achieve if allowed access to a longer life span.

Without us dying we would be living forever in our sinful bodies and thus we would be suffering forever. Death is a way out of our suffering since it means these bodies will eventually be gotten rid of.

Are our bodies sinful or our 'souls'?

 

[timtofly]

Sounds like they hadn't partaken of the Tree of Life yet, but it could mean they had and were still mortal and God was cutting them off. I dont know that other myths about the Tree of Life say it must be continually eaten, once was usually enough.

God said: "The day that you eat from it, it will become certain that you will die." The ultimate result of death is eternal separation from God. On one hand you have eternal life without consequences. On the other hand you have a knowledge that God (and the angels) knows about, good leading you toward God, with evil leading you away from God. Why would a human want to live eternally separated from God? If Adam and Eve were allowed to live forever in Paradise, how would the punishment work? If they were immediately removed from life, how would that be punishment?

Nevertheless, they didn't die the day they ate the fruit much less after merely touching it, and when God reports the incident to his friends he doesn't mention his warning. He practically quotes the Serpent's prediction and continued mortality is the punishment.

Touching it never produced a result. Eve added that into the narrative. The result was the separation of God from man. Being a mortal is a form of death, in that one is no longer immortal which means living for ever. Entropy starts the day you are born, even while the body is growing.

We became like God, to know good and evil. I take that to mean we departed from the animals. And nakedness, being ashamed and the sewing of fig leaves suggest something about procreation, maybe God didn't want too many people in his Garden.

We can only imagine what it was like to live without consequences. Animals really do not have to answer to any one, although if they pester humans too much they are removed. Nakedness is more than a moral stigma. They hid from God. The Garden did not "belong" to God any more than every other part of the universe. It was Adam's paradise, and Adam lost it.

They died centuries later, the warning from God was immediate death. I could believe your interpretation if God mentioned it while reporting to his friends. But God echoes what the Serpent said, no mention of Adam and Eve dying. They didn't die from obtaining knowledge, they died because they were mortal and God denied them the Tree of Life as part of the punishment for their disobedience and "fear" of what they'd be able to achieve if allowed access to a longer life span.

As shown above the punishment was not mortal death. It was spiritual, and separation from God. Humans who do not obey God, do not have a relationship with God. Humans whose only nature tends toward evil cannot come into God's presence. Satan knew that such knowledge would put man at odds with God, because humans were not supposed to choose between good and evil.

Are our bodies sinful or our 'souls'?

Both are separated from God. Allegedly, we have not physically seen God since Jesus, but that may be because we refuse to. Some refuse to even view Jesus as God. Our souls are separated from God, because we only trust our physical shell. Even Adam and Eve attempted to hide from God, and they knew him personally, how much more so, we who have never seen God. Or at least that is what we have been taught since birth. You are probably asking what does this have to do with sin. Sin has been known as braking the law, even the Law of Moses, which Christianity seems to feel we are still bound by. Sin is disobeying God on a personal level, and if one has no knowledge of God, how would they know they are sinning against God? The last thing that we were told by Jesus was that he paid the penalty that the law required. So we do not have to be in bondage under any law. That does not give us license to live as we please either. We still need to choose between good and evil.

 

[El_Machinae]

You wonder why they didn't eat from the Tree of Life already, but before the Fall, it was called "The Tree of Business as Usual"

 

[classical_hero]

Hmm...never considered the possibility Adam and Eve were already eating from the Tree of Life and had to continue or lose their longer life spans. Here is the text from NIV:



Sounds like they hadn't partaken of the Tree of Life yet, but it could mean they had and were still mortal and God was cutting them off. I dont know that other myths about the Tree of Life say it must be continually eaten, once was usually enough.

Of course they hadn't eaten of the tree of life yet. God pushed them out of the garden so they couldn't do that.

Nevertheless, they didn't die the day they ate the fruit much less after merely touching it, and when God reports the incident to his friends he doesn't mention his warning. He practically quotes the Serpent's prediction and continued mortality is the punishment.

The touching of the fruit was what Adam said to Eve. I am certain he said it with good intentions, but when man adds to the word of God, only trouble can occur. Know how people think it is more than likely that Eve first touched the fruit, so as result of not dying or seeing anything wrong, she would have assumed then that it would be okay to eat the fruit since she touched it and was okay. They did die. Death was hanging over their heads from that moment on. If God killed them the moment they eat of the fruit, how would the be able to be saved from the second death? The bible speaks of two deaths, one is physical and the other is spiritual. Death in the bible simply means separation. Spiritual death is separation from God and physical death is separation of your body from soul and spirit. The moment they ate of the fruit they were separated from God, so in that moment they died Spiritually, only then they were waiting for God to finally execute his final judgement. The problem is that we might know good and evil, but we only ever do evil. Si are you saying that you would want to live forever in this body? the Serpent lied in the Garden, we died and that is a fact. It doesn't matter the timing, just that it happened. So are you telling me the world we live in better than a world without death and suffering?

We also have an example from 1 Kings 2 where the exact phrase is used again.

1 Kings 3:36-42 And the king sent and called for Shimei, and said unto him, Build thee an house in Jerusalem, and dwell there, and go not forth thence any whither.
37 For it shall be, that on the day thou goest out, and passest over the brook Kidron, thou shalt know for certain that thou shalt surely die: thy blood shall be upon thine own head.
38 And Shimei said unto the king, The saying is good: as my lord the king hath said, so will thy servant do. And Shimei dwelt in Jerusalem many days.
39 And it came to pass at the end of three years, that two of the servants of Shimei ran away unto Achish son of Maachah king of Gath. And they told Shimei, saying, Behold, thy servants be in Gath.
40 And Shimei arose, and saddled his ass, and went to Gath to Achish to seek his servants: and Shimei went, and brought his servants from Gath.
41 And it was told Solomon that Shimei had gone from Jerusalem to Gath, and was come again.
42 And the king sent and called for Shimei, and said unto him, Did I not make thee to swear by the Lord, and protested unto thee, saying, Know for a certain, on the day thou goest out, and walkest abroad any whither, that thou shalt surely die? and thou saidst unto me, The word that I have heard is good.

So my question to you is, die Shimei die the instant he crossed the river?

We became like God, to know good and evil. I take that to mean we departed from the animals. And nakedness, being ashamed and the sewing of fig leaves suggest something about procreation, maybe God didn't want too many people in his Garden.

We were already separate from the animals, since Adam had no companion that he could relate to, thus God formed Eve to help him with his work and for companionship. Adam and Eve were the ones who put fig leaves on their bodies, once they found out they were naked and were in shame. We knew that because Adam tried to hide himself from God. Genesis 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. Why would Adam and Eve hide themselves?

They died centuries later, the warning from God was immediate death. I could believe your interpretation if God mentioned it while reporting to his friends. But God echoes what the Serpent said, no mention of Adam and Eve dying. They didn't die from obtaining knowledge, they died because they were mortal and God denied them the Tree of Life as part of the punishment for their disobedience and "fear" of what they'd be able to achieve if allowed access to a longer life span.

The saying "thou shalt surely die" doesn't mean imminent death, but judgement that will result in death. It means that they are guilty and are awaiting judgement. They became mortal because they disobeyed God and thus if they were to live forever in these bodies, they would be suffering for all eternity in these terrible bodies. They could have lived forever had they eaten of the Tree of life first, then it would have showed obedience to God and thus they had made the choice to obey. The reason for the two trees is a simple test of obedience and they failed it.

Are our bodies sinful or our 'souls'?

The whole body is sinful. That makes it a problem for Christians is that now they have a regenerated spirit but they still have a sinful body, so they are in conflict with each other. Romans 7 clearly expresses the conflict that is now in a believers body.

You wonder why they didn't eat from the Tree of Life already, but before the Fall, it was called "The Tree of Business as Usual"

Well there was choice for them to make and the choice they made meant they were sinful and thus God in his mercy made sure that man could live forever in this imperfect body. That would mean no chance of redemption since we would be stuck forever in this condition and be suffering from the effects of sin with no way out of the suffering.

 

[Arakhor]

One has to wonder that if Adam could live for 500 years and Methuselah for 969 years etc., all whilst in the Bronze Age, why on earth they'd need to eat from the Tree of Life.

I also have to wonder about the intepretation that God introduced entropy into the entire universe, just because Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge. That leads to the supposition that God decided to wilfully ruin his entire creation (which had been very good), simply because he was annoyed by what his last creations had done in a tiny, insignificant portion of his unfathomably vast creation.

 

[JollyRoger]

God's creation of the mercy/redemption ruleset seems a bit off too.

 

[Rashiminos]

One has to wonder that if Adam could live for 500 years and Methuselah for 969 years etc., all whilst in the Bronze Age, why on earth they'd need to eat from the Tree of Life.

____

I also have to wonder about the intepretation that God introduced entropy into the entire universe, just because Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge.

god introduced? "fruit" of the "tree of knowledge?"

That leads to the supposition that God decided to wilfully ruin his entire creation (which had been very good), simply because he was annoyed by what his last creations had done in a tiny, insignificant portion of his unfathomably vast creation.

Maybe "God" and/or god didn't do that. Maybe the "last creations" did something that demonstrated their will to live in the tiny, insignificant portion of creation specified (a portion that happens to have entropy)?

 

[Arakhor]

Well, if original sin is simply the religious name for entropy, that would explain CH's line of reasoning, but I think that that's just a bit of a stretch, don't you?

 

[Rashiminos]

Well, if original sin is simply the religious name for entropy, that would explain CH's line of reasoning, but I think that that's just a bit of a stretch, don't you?

Could be, but would you dispute the choosing of an inevitable, complete destruction of oneself being called a sin against oneself?

 

[Arakhor]

People are known to be very bad at acting in their own rational self-interest, but no, I wouldn't call it a sin, any more than I would term suicide a sin. That said, millions probably would, so there you go.

 

[Rashiminos]

People are known to be very bad at acting in their own rational self-interest, but no, I wouldn't call it a sin, any more than I would term suicide a sin. That said, millions probably would, so there you go.

So it's not a sin for you. Okay.

 

[classical_hero]

One has to wonder that if Adam could live for 500 years and Methuselah for 969 years etc., all whilst in the Bronze Age, why on earth they'd need to eat from the Tree of Life.

Just wow. Obviously you didn't read what I said. This sentence is pretty poor considering what I just wrote right above.

I also have to wonder about the intepretation that God introduced entropy into the entire universe, just because Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge. That leads to the supposition that God decided to wilfully ruin his entire creation (which had been very good), simply because he was annoyed by what his last creations had done in a tiny, insignificant portion of his unfathomably vast creation.

The whole of creation is also waiting for the redemption that is to come.

Why am I repeating myself so much in this thread?

 

[Arakhor]

So, if I'm understanding this at all, God granting the early characters in Genesis centuries-long lifespans was yet another form of punishment?

 

[Borachio]

I am very confused.

 

[Rashiminos]

The whole of creation is also waiting for the redemption that is to come.

Why am I repeating myself so much in this thread?

You seem bent on hammering a particular point until the nail is driven in?

"Whole" creation is it?

 

[TrafficJam]

So, if I'm understanding this at all, God granting the early characters in Genesis centuries-long lifespans was yet another form of punishment?

Why would it be punishment?

For those who believe, they are given time to interact with those who don't believe, and God uses this interaction to bring more to belief.

For those who don't believe, they are given hundreds of years to repent.

Either way, the end result is that people are given loads of time to turn from their wickedness. Sounds more like mercy to me.

 

[warpus]

Are there any quotes in the Bible that explain why God values belief in something lacking evidence so much?

I don't mean to be rude - if there was evidence, you wouldn't need faith.. right? So why does God 'hide' himself, instead of coming out into the spotlight so that we can all see him and worship him? Why hide and make us jump through hoops to find him? Why is that part of it so important to him? Why punish those who don't believe that he exists?

Just curious if there are any quotes in the Bible that quote God saying something like: "Belief in me is important because ________"

 

[JollyRoger]

This redemption stuff seems like one big bait and switch.