LK149 - WM, Indonesia

[Northern Pike]

I'm not so confident that they can't take that town this turn. If they take Bekasi, their other cavs will be moving from Chinese territory on roads -- giving them 1-2 extra squares of range from their current positions.

I'm afraid you're right. The domino effect when closely packed cities are falling to cav is terrible, and Depok is empty. Unless the Chinese move a huge stack in we may be able to re-take it, though not much will left of the improvements after the city has changed hands twice.

 

[Greebley]

I was thinking we may have control of the hills square inside our territory. If not the Cavalry will likely follow the clear squares of the Jungle rather than an iffy attack.

Edit: Got a chance to look again and its only a MDI on the hill. So not so good.

 

[Greebley]

We can upgrade the spear in the Peninsula towns. I don't think those will be taken.

Other than that we can hope they go for the empty town before the one with a Musket - which would mean they don't make it because they don't take the close town.

Also how about waking the worker stack and scattering them all over. Each one will stop one Cavalry from attacking.

 

[Northern Pike]

This looks terrible, but we at least should see how many civs we we can drag into the war against China, as LK and Greebley have suggested. The one thing in our favour is that military alliances are cheap. First we need embassies with the Mongols, the Persians, and the Russians, to see which of them might already be at war with China. We'd most like to get the Mongols into the war, of course, and after that I'd say the Persians before the Russians.

Tactical points, some of which have already been made by Greebley:

With any gold remaining after we seek alliances we should upgrade spearmen to musketmen, starting in Bandung and Tangerang.

The question that we can't answer without seeing what happens in the interturn is whether we should try to hold on to Depok, or whether it would be more realistic to park our army on the one-tile chokepoint (a hill) N-NW of Bandung and just try to cling grimly to the Malay peninsula as our foothold on the mainland. All I can really say is that it would be good to do both, but preserving the army to hold the peninsular chokepoint is much more important if we have to choose.

This ties in to the question of when we should load a third knight into our army. We have to do it, but possibly not until we've moved the army across the water to the peninsula by caravel, since Chinese advances may cut land communications between the two parts of our mainland position.

Although we'll probably lose both places regardless, Banjarmasin's whole garrison should move into Denpasar to give us a slight chance of saving the iron city. The choice between two empty cities might confuse the Chinese cav in a useful way, too.

The workers clearing jungle by Serang should be pulled off that job and retreated down the peninsula, or they'll all be lost. In the ideal case they'd start fortifying the hill N-NW of Bandung in perhaps two turns (a two-turn job), if we've accumulated enough units in the area to give them some sort of protection, or if we dedicate the army to that task. This is why it's crucial that we upgrade the spearman in Bandung before we hit Enter.

I don't know how to assess Greebley's alternative idea that we should just sacrifice the workers to distract Chinese cav. It goes against my instincts to abandon our remaining options like that, but if it would substantially increase our chances of holding Depok and isn't just a wild hope, I suppose it makes sense. It's not a question of the workers' being lost anyway, though, since with a move of two they can easily make it to safety.

Note that if we still hold (or shall have re-taken) Depok next turn, a ship chain from Depok to Bandung will get musketmen from their stack adjacent to the city to the crucial hill tile on the peninsula, all in one turn.

If we carry out this ship chain, as many settlers as possible should flee to the peninsula that way. To lose them all in Depok would be very bad.

 

[Greebley]

I am not sure on the workers either. Definitely keeping them all on a vulnerable square is worst, so either retreat them or try spreading them out.

For the Peninsula its better to block it not in the town but in the hill square (if we can do it).

 

[Elephantium]

Good news: Mongolia is already at war with China.

We can buy Persia in for 30gpt, WM, and 5 gold. (or 455gold, 5 gpt, and WM)

We'll certainly lose Bekasi and Serang this turn. Banjarmasin, Denpasar, and Depok should actually be safe for one more turn.

Greebley, what is an MMP? Mutual protection?

 

[Northern Pike]

Good, so we should buy Persia in with gpt, saving the gold for all the spearman --> musketman upgrades we can afford.

I think you're being optimistic about which cities the Chinese can take this interturn, although a lot will depend on the specific order in which they move their units. They only have one cav that can get into Depok, and it might waste its move, but I don't hold out much hope for the other towns.

Yes, Mutual Protection Pact.

 

[Elephantium]

I buy Persia in to the war: 5 gold, 30gpt, WM.
I pick up another 201 gold and 5gpt from Egypt for Physics.

IBT - China loses a Frigate on our ship near Shantung
and another by Depok
They lose two Cavs at Bekasi
Third Cav razes it!
Another Cav kills our MDI
Yet another burns Serang.
One retreats at Banjarmasin
Another kills the Musket there
Antoher dies
And the next kills the MDI and takes the city.
Next, one kills the MDI and razes Denpasar
More disasters. They kill the Musket on the hill next to the ruins of Serang, capture the Workers there, and seize Depok.
I think I saw at least one extra Cav head into Depok, but I'm not sure.

We lose our supply of Saltpeter, too.

I'm too demoralized to continue this right now.

 

[LKendter]

Summary:
This couldn't arrive at a worse time. The next time I have free time is Sunday night. If NP is available to swap, please do so.

This is the most demoralizing of the recent WM games. Other had problems with stuck, but none went backwards like this.


ROSTER:
LKendter (up)
Northern Pike (on deck)
Greebley
Elephantium (just played)

 

[Greebley]

A rough set of turns to play. I don't blame you for passing it on. I have done the same in the past.

I will have lots of time until Tuesday, but then will be gone Wed-Sunday of July 3-7. I mention this because it looks like I might come up right around the time I will leave.

 

[Northern Pike]

The next time I have free time is Sunday night. If NP is available to swap, please do so.

I've tried to make time, but unfortunately I can't get out of a wedding (fortunately not my own ). So unless Tusker wants another drink from this poisoned chalice--and if not, that's quite understandable, as Greebley says--it's over to LK on Sunday.

 

[LKendter]

1060 AD (0)
The situation is even uglier then I imagined.
The only two civs behind us are broke. We now have no iron or saltpeter. Our army is totally misplaced to save the peninsula. We are bleeding -8/T with just $32 in the bank.
In addition, I got the game in a very confusing state with nothing moved. I have a very hard time playing when I pick up the game this way.

I don't think we can keep it, but I take Depok back. I hope it will distract China long enough to switch to peninsula defense.

While reviewing the map I get further depressed. China, Sioux and Aztecs are building a rail-net. The Sioux have already been hit by pollution.
(IT) China and Sioux ally vs. Argentina. Not the pair I want friendly. China needs more enemies.
We are totally screwed as China attacked our and killed our army tried to block the peninsula. We lost multiple units stacked on the hill including the army.


Posting for a FYI, as I am now 100% clueless how to win this game.
Without the ability to build muskets I don't see how we can get on the offensive anytime soon. Not to mention compete in tech. This is the point where we are at least competing with some AI civs, not way behind.

 

[Northern Pike]

That's pretty dire, all right. Our having an army was the last positive feature of this situation.

You know best the patterns of the game on this map, so whatever you decide to do will be fine. I'd prefer that we play a few more turns and see whether we can hold the peninsula, with the Chinese perhaps becoming distracted by all their other wars. But if you feel that would be wasted effort in a hopeless position, fair enough.

If we're going to play on, we should cover every tile in the Philippines with settlers, workers, etc. so that landings there are impossible. That might be considered exploitative play, but we can't be picky at the moment.

 

[LKendter]

@NP - you just posted as I am about to post my turn.

 

[LKendter]

1070 AD (1)
(IT) China moves all its troops away from us?
The Aztecs is building Universal Suffrage.


1100 AD (4)
Our cash flow just dropped to -17/T. We must have lost a payment from somebody. We squeeze a lousy $11/T from France for Chemistry to help.
(IT) Argentina is building Universal Suffrage.


1110 AD (5)
I don't accept it, but at the moment China offers a straight peace treaty. The Mongols must have really hit them hard.
(IT) I should have done it. China lands two units by Indus defended by a lone spear behind walls.


1120 AD (6)
Cimahi is formed to reclaim the iron. A bucket is disbanded to allow walls to be rushed this turn.
(IT) Mongolia signs peace with China.
We have lost Indus. The rifle entered, so we have low hope to take back with knights.



Summary:
We did get screwed on saltpeter. I can appear on hills.
However, my failure to playtest better is what really hurt. I wonder how much better shape we would be in if we had pikes available, and had tripped a GA.

We have a debate if we take peace with China. The question would then be where in the world to expand to. Australia is staying backwards, but we need an edge in quality to invade there.


ROSTER:
LKendter (just played)
Northern Pike (up)
Greebley (on deck)
Elephantium

 

[Northern Pike]

@NP - you just posted as I am about to post my turn.

Actually, my comment went up eight hours before you posted. Perhaps you were looking at a page that didn't refresh? That would be typical of the luck we've had in every aspect of this game.

I wonder how much better shape we would be in if we had pikes available, and had tripped a GA.

It's too bad we missed our GA, but the really crushing factor in this game has been the jungle start. The huge delay in getting our early cities up and running might have been too much, at deity, even if other things had gone better.

I've got it.

 

[LKendter]

The forums are WAY behind on email notices. I just got the notice about your post above.

 

[Greebley]

1070 AD (1)
(IT) China moves all its troops away from us?

This is what I was trying to say we should make happen. If our weakest defense in Asia is stronger than those for the Mongols they should retreat to go after their cities.

Note however, sometimes things are 'on their way' somewhere and don't get redirected so its not 100% perfect.

As long as Japan has one enemy we should be ok if we keep defenses high. We only start to run into trouble when we have enough towns that we cannot defend them all so well.

I would like to see if we can make forward progress against China before peace. We do have to worry about the islands though. I think enough defense in them works as well, however, full defense everywhere is hard to achieve.

Didn't get a chance to look at the save, so I can't be more specific.

 

[Northern Pike]

We've re-taken Indus in the Philippines, and a bit of territory in Indochina. I'll post later today (Saturday).

 

[LKendter]

We've re-taken Indus in the Philippines, and a bit of territory in Indochina. I'll post later today (Saturday).

That I'm dying to see how.

I was happy to get iron back.