LK149 - WM, Indonesia

[Northern Pike]

If we're going to commit to self-research, we can change a lot of our present builds to libraries, the marketplaces in particular.

 

[Ray2]

lurker's comment: Seems a difficult game to me guys. Mostly, I would be worried about Sioux and their 67 cities. Runaway civ on a different continent is difficult to ''control''. UN/cultural loss is possible, although as long as they remain communists I think they will go the war route.

Your only option to me, seems to improve your economy and steal from those with no money (alliances). Rep. is not a problem, since there is also the negotiate peace option.

Also, if you don't mind using small exploits, you could immediately have a few free techs from the Persians and later Australians (remember to turn all citizens to tax collectors first).

The challenging part would be the war with China (only way of expansion), ideally before they have infantry.


@LKendter

Probably you should have increased the cultural limit of 100k for such a map. Similarly, OCN and techrate values should be higher, otherwise the player is penalized too much on higher difficulties.

Have we done one jungle burn in this game that's revealed BG? That's another respect in which our luck has been horrid.

It's not your luck. From what I remember, this is a problem of all these Earth maps. There is no BGs under jungles, you can find BGs under wheat and cows, FPlains off rivers and other strange things. Not sure why it happens.

 

[Northern Pike]

From what I remember, this is a problem of all these Earth maps. There is no BGs under jungles

Strange, but good to know.

 

[LKendter]

I didn't have time to play last night. However, I took a look at the game. We can get astronomy on the cheap from India as part of a peace treaty. However, I can't find anyway to trade it. Is is still worth grabbing on the cheap? Each turn may increase what India will give, but how long before China wipes him out. That is something I have NEVER seen on the WM games before.

Any comments about the Australia invasion idea? I agree, it will be very tough. However, I agree with NP that it will be impossible to hit China in the near future.
I've never seen two AIs wiped in America this early. We really have an odd game with run aways.

 

[Kulko]

Is it possible, that the China/India asymmetry happens because Indonesia is taking up space normally settled mostly by India?

 

[LKendter]

Is it possible, that the China/India asymmetry happens because Indonesia is taking up space normally settled mostly by India?

It is very possible. India normally grabs quite a bit of the islands that make up Indonesia.

 

[Northern Pike]

Granting India peace in return for a discount on Astronomy is an excellent idea, and we can almost certainly turn it into a threefer, or technically a fourfer. First we need to cut the luxury rate to zero, giving us 190 gpt; we'll make up the happiness deficit at the end of the process. India will give us Astronomy for peace, 131 gpt, and our WM. With 59 gpt still in hand, we should then be able to buy Chemistry from the Songhai or the Americans for Astronomy and gpt. Then the Germans will undoubtedly give us Banking, Music Theory, wines, and 12 gold for Astronomy and Chemistry, since MT is cheap and the deal doesn't involve our gpt. Finally we can send Music Theory to Australia for ivory and 8 gold, thus restoring our happiness position.

I assume that it wouldn't be against our standards to go to war with Australia while they were still sending us ivory, since they would already have received their share in the deal.

 

[Northern Pike]

A bit more on trades:

Ideally we would make the Astronomy-for-Chemistry trade with the Songhai, so that we could send the Americans Astronomy for dyes at the end of the process.

We'll also have the option of sending Egypt a tech for saltpetre when the smoke clears.

The Persians place some value on our WM at the moment (38 gold and their TM), so we should grab that deal.

 

[Northern Pike]

I agree that the Australian project presents many difficulties; just getting large numbers of troops there, with all the sea hops involved, will be a PITA. But the basic question is, do we have any other possible road to victory, the UN aside? It's hard to see how we could ever build up to a successful attack on China within our current borders. At least an Australian war would let us expand substantially, and accumulate armies, against the one civ on earth clearly behind us in tech.

The Australians have twenty-three cities, five of them outlying junk towns that we can see, eighteen presumptively in Australia or New Zealand.

 

[Greebley]

I think we need to do the war with Australia despite the annoyance. And do the tech trades of course.

I think we should start preparing for self research fairly soon (Australian war would take preference though), It can always be used to reduce the prices of techs. I believe research actually costs less. The difficulty is that if you get the tech at the end, there are less 2-fers. Libraries will also help with flips of small towns by reducing the culture multiplier.

 

[LKendter]

800 AD (0)
At 600 AD the Sioux would be insulted with a deal. At 650 AD they would never accept such a deal.
The 650 AD turn shows 5 less turns all on active deals. I'm totally baffled why.
We still had 4 turns of RoP with India. China is at war with India, and will trade. Does breaking a RoP ruin rep?

We start with 196 gold, and after trading maps have 252 gold. Babylon and Persia were the good ones.
The first trade is with India. We give them peace, wm and $131 and get astronomy.
I temporarily put multiple cities unhappy to get enough gpt. I give astronomy and $43/T to Songhai for chemistry.
Chemistry and astronomy go to Germany for banking, music theory and wines.
Music theory gets us ivory and $8 from Australia.
(IT) We lost our supply of incense. Medan riots over this.
Here come the stupid alliances - India and Russia vs. Argentina.


810 AD (1)
Banjarmasin is formed in the marginal spot proposed by NP. The main reason I did so was I agree with him on protecting our iron source.
America gets astronomy giving us dyes, $9/T and $20.


820 AD (2)
(IT) Germany joins the dog pile vs. India.


850 AD (5)
(IT) Stupid wars continue with France declaring on the Sioux.
We have completed Heroic Epic.

 

[LKendter]

860 AD (6)
Chemistry and $20 goes to Egypt for economics and saltpeter.
Smith's in Palemberg is too low of odds at 27 turns. I really want a GA, but that won't be the answer.
(IT) Persia and the Sioux sign peace.


870 AD (7)
Our cash position has stayed about the same, but we now have a tm for Argentina. I really see how this game is such a runaway in America. They ate ALL of Brazil and probably part of Venezuela. The trading also got an updated tm from India and Persia. Our map knowledge is weak for this point in the game, so I am happy to get any scraps of knowledge I can.


890 AD (9)
Our world knowledge improves again as we get TM from Songhai, Germany and Australia. The second one is VERY valuable with our upcoming plans. I can now recall the exploring caravel. We need shipping ability. As an added bonus we gained enough cash to upgrade another ship.


900 AD (10)
Our map knowledge continues to expand. We know have Egypt's tm. Songhai must be missing some of the recent ones as we get 4/T from them.



Summary:
Please have the spear by Djok load the caravel and move to Bogor. We still need some safety margin in Tasikmalaya before war with Australia can start. We may want to pull the knight out of the city, and save it for counter attacks.

The workers on the ship are for that island. There is still way to much jungle there.

We have a few troops next to Australia, but nowhere close to enough to land. Our bombard stack from SE Asia is heading that way. We have a spare settler to make sure WE have one safe city. Our elite sword is down there. More scattered troops under construction / heading that way.
I've gotten a few more buildings done as we can't win this without better research / income.


ROSTER:
LKendter (just played)
Northern Pike (swapped)
Greebley (up)
Elephantium (on deck)

 

[Northern Pike]

Oops--you posted my save (800 AD), not yours (900 AD).

 

[LKendter]

Oops--you posted my save (800 AD), not yours (900 AD).

Here is the correct version.

 

[Greebley]

Ok, I got it. I will start tonight or tomorrow night (Eastern US time). Not sure which yet,

 

[Northern Pike]

I think we should return to pumping out settlers in Jakarta. We'll need plenty in Australia, while our need for workers isn't as great now; and our city razes in Oz will produce a lot of slaves eventually.

The cathedral build in Medan seems like a huge investment of shields to return one citizen to work, when we can get the same effect by moving in one more garrison unit. I'd suggest changing that one to a bank.

Bandar Lampung on New Guinea is working a jungle tile, so we'll want to remove that risk.

The Americans will give us 19 gpt and 5 gold for Economics, and the French will pay 13 gpt and 74 gold for Banking--modest amounts, but perhaps we should scoop them up.

The situation right now is that nine civs won't accept our gpt and seven will. The nine that won't are the Mongols, Egypt, Russia, the Zulus, the Aztecs, the Sioux, France, India, and Persia.

 

[LKendter]

I thought I had Jakrta working on a settler right now.

The small GPT is tough to call.
There is a chance that America will research navigation and we can use economics to get it.
If I didn't hold off, we wouldn't have gotten economics from Egypt.
OTOH France is a lost cause with being SO far behind. There are just an excuse to pick up cash.

 

[Northern Pike]

Yes, a close call. It's not much money, but OTOH Navigation is an optional tech that wouldn't do much for us.

Looking into the position a little further, since the Argentines will accept our gpt, we should send them 27 gpt for our fourth luxury, and then cut the lux rate to zero. We'd definitely turn a profit on this.

 

[LKendter]

Trade over ocean squares should help avoid broken routes to get luxuries from overseas. The only advantage her is getting faster then magnatism.

At this point the ability to trade maps doesn't matter much, since most AIs can already do so.

It is a tough call. Don't forget we might renew dyes from America for economics.

 

[Northern Pike]

Don't forget we might renew dyes from America for economics.

That was my first thought, but my second was that hoping the Americans won't pick up Economics from someone else in the next eleven turns is very optimistic.