LK154 - CCM - Bablyon

[Greebley]

If we are switching away from it, the one thing I ask is that we build it soon. We lose shields in almost every city every turn we don't have it which is often why it is better to have it than wait for the ideal city. I remember that was the big c3c change over ptw; placement location became less important than timing.

Note that I think that city will be fairly strong later on if we started building it now.

Aside: Coal can appear in hills right? (Although I can't remember if the iron works exist in C3C with double shields or+100%) I have chosen iron cities in the past to try to 'get lucky'.

 

[Northern Pike]

We lose shields in almost every city every turn we don't have it which is often why it is better to have it than wait for the ideal city.

This is where we differ. There's no reason to think that the Great Palace works like the Forbidden Palace in C3C. I've tried to see the effects of the GP in previous games, and never noticed any except in its home city.

 

[Greebley]

Hmmm, I was assuming it was a general reducer but didn't actually check; as the two usually go hand in hand.

The Civopedia states it works as a second palace which should include:
1) Reducing corruption everywhere.
2) As a basis for calculating distance corruption (lesser distance of it or the capitol)
3) reduce corruption by 70% in the city it is built in.

The C3C China-only forbidden Palace is NOT a secondary palace so being close to that doesn't matter.

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Easy to test however since we would build it next turn and you are correct. The civopedia entry is a bit misleading. It should just state it greatly reduces corruption in the city itself and not 'is a second palace' which I take to be the C3C foreign palace.
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Our gold taken in did not go up when built (total increase of 1) and beijing did not gain any shields.

Definitely worth switching to Hospital. I do think we should provided some workers for that poor town. It can grow. It won't need all of them in the area as it cannot grow fast until we have rails.

[edit: It still might have the iron works (Industrial Core Center at +75 in CCM - not likely but we should let it grow at a normal pace just in case]

 

[Northern Pike]

Thanks for doing the concrete analysis.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Quick report: Macao built a Hospital I have a small work crew chopping and irrigating there. As of 1714AD China is down to its last 2 cities at least 1 hopefully both should be added to our empire next turn. Also we acquired 3 wines from China.
Next turn is when we get a lot of gold back.

One problem with France, they have 1 city (Grenoble) which is located between the Mongols and America. Any problem with capturing all but 1 of their cities and, either remaining at war but not fighting them or making peace?

EDIT:
I just noticed that for the next 13 turns France is giving us 42gpt. Guess we delay declaring on them.

Do we switch our focus to Indo-China?

 

[Northern Pike]

Great news.

It's not just Grenoble and the 42 gpt, but the situation has changed since we semi-agreed on France as our next target, due to our very fast tech progress to MilTrad/cav. We have the units to attack more serious enemies now, in wars that would bring us more benefit.

Looking at it that way, I think the decision is between Indochina, a fairly easy target with cities that would help us a quite a lot (but no money), and Israel, a tough enemy from which we could take a fortune (but only starting in eleven turns, which might tip the decision to Indochina).

So, if you could redeploy our strike forces to a flexible position between Ur and Cathyton after we finish off the Chinese, that would probably give us the most options while we discuss our choice. Getting a road built from Lagash to the border of Israel would be good, too.

 

[Northern Pike]

Another aspect of the situation is that once we've eliminated China, it would be very wasteful to lose any more knights fighting as knights when they can upgrade to much stronger hussars. So although it might take too long to upgrade all of them before we go to war again, a short lull in which we can do most of the job won't be a bad thing.

 

[Greebley]

I agree on the upgrading the Knights.

Nubia is also very rich; I think they also got the Cash part of our trading; Maybe report how much both have now? Nubia is just past China and may make a good target. We will have more of a border with them than with Israel and their large no mans land between us.

Taking Israel from Nubia might work better.

Actually the Israel deal will end first. Since we don't want to ruin our rep, we would have to get Nubia to attack us (or wait which might not be bad -we could even start science research). They might as they are at least advanced. Not sure how strong.

So I am not sure which would be the best of the three. Agree not France which is why I went for the 42 gpt deal

 

[Northern Pike]

Well spotted about Nubia (49K gold as of 1710 AD). Remarkably, we're already strong relative to the Nubians; they must have fought some grim wars of their own (as their city count of eleven confirms).

I think that combination of wealth and weakness makes Nubia the clear choice, even though we'll have to wait eleven turns from the point JJ seems to have reached now. I agree that we can't attack a civ to which we owe gold. Of course, setting up the attack would take much of that time in any case, so it's not really an eleven-turn delay.

Nubia has a city just on the wrong side of the chokepoint, Nawat, but since this would be largely a war for gold I don't think that's a deal-breaker.

 

[Jersey Joe]

1710AD: - Renegotiate deal with Israel. We get spices + 42gpt for horses and furs. Change Macao to Hospital.
Sell 12 castles and 32 granaries netting 720 gold.

Between Turn: Chinese request an audience, asking for peace. We refuse.
Chinese Longbow kills Musketeer by Shanghai(0,1). Musketeer kills longbow by Shanghai(1,1)

1712AD:
At Tientsin: Cavalry kills firelancer(2,1) eKnight kills firelancer(3,1) Tientsin is captured and 2 workers are recruited.
At Shanghai: Firelance kills Kinight(3,2). eKnight Kills firelance(4,2). Hussar kills firelance(5,2). eKnight retreats. Knight kills Firelance(6,2). Shanghai is captured. Shanghai's granary is sold. We acquire wine. Musketman kills longbow(7,2).
At Nantes: Enslaver captures a worker.

Between Turn: Tsingtao revolts(7,3).

1714AD:
At Tsintao: firelance kills Knight(7,4). Knight kills firelance(8,4). Tsinatao is recapture.
At Xinjian: eTrebuchet kills firelance(9,4). Cavalry promoted killing firelance(10,4) eKnight retreats. Firelance kills Musketeer(10,5) Musketeer kills firelance(11,5). Musketeer kills firelance(12,5). Xinjian is captured.
At Chengdu: eKnight kills longbow(13,5)

1716AD:
At Nantes: Cavalry kills firelance (14,5). Cavalry kills firelance (15,5). Cavalry kills firelance (16,5). Nantes is captured.
At Tatung: Hussar retreats from eFirelance. Hussar kills firelance (17,5). Hussar kills firelance (18,5). eFirelance kills Hussar (18,6) eKnight kills eFirelance (19,6). Cavalry kills longbow (20,6).

At Nimes(French) eMullah converts ancient cavalry (21,6). We get a Great Leader
War prep begins (see next post)

 

[Jersey Joe]

Well spotted about Nubia (49K gold as of 1710 AD). Remarkably, we're already strong relative to the Nubians; they must have fought some grim wars of their own (as their city count of eleven confirms).

I think that combination of wealth and weakness makes Nubia the clear choice, even though we'll have to wait eleven turns from the point JJ seems to have reached now. I agree that we can't attack a civ to which we owe gold. Of course, setting up the attack would take much of that time in any case, so it's not really an eleven-turn delay.

Nubia has a city just on the wrong side of the chokepoint, Nawat, but since this would be largely a war for gold I don't think that's a deal-breaker.

It is going to take a few turns to gather enough combat engineers to build the roads. I think a road running from Anyang almost due south is the quickest route to a Nubian city. Also a route from our saltpeter colony south west.

The first 2 techs we learn when we get to the Industrial Age should be Improved Steam Engines and Steel (so we can build workers).

Here are some screen shots comparing Nubia and Indo-China.

Maps of Nubia and Indo-China:

Spoiler :

Nubia West:

Nubia East:

Indo-China:

Outstanding Trades as of 1716AD:

Spoiler :

Military Comparison as of 1716AD:

Spoiler :

 

[Northern Pike]

Great stuff.

Yes, naturally building roads, upgrading knights, and so on will take some time. That's fine, when we can't attack Nubia for another eleven turns anyway.

Those ideas about roads sound fine. We should do what reconnaissance we can into the Nubian fog, by just sending fast units two tiles past their border and then apologizing/withdrawing.

 

[LKendter]

While the cash will be nice, Nubia is going to make our borders worse. We are still a while from rails and key tech that gives the human player the advantage on defense.
IIRC from Nubia the only way to swing south is Israel, and they will be a headache to take out. Are we planning just to raze Nubian cities to grab the cash? I personally don't want to hit Nubia and keep - defense will be a nightmare.


ROSTER:

LKendter
Greebley
Jersey Joe
Elephantium (up)
Northern Pike (on deck)

 

[Northern Pike]

LK, my impression is that JJ meant this as an interim report and intends to play another seven turns.

I don't think the danger of our being attacked if we keep the Nubian cities we conquer will be too great. If we take Nubia and then attack Israel only the Incas will be in a position to stab us in the back, and they'd be likelier to attack the weaker French if they're ready for war. Also, they still have room to put down their next couple of cities without aggression.

More generally, the AI civs just haven't been aggressive on the whole in all the CCM games we've played.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Lee, I planned on playing another 7 turns or so before turning the game over to Tusker. I just stopped to find out what the next target is so I know where to move the troops.

Personally, I think Indo-China will be an easier target than Nubia. With the amount of gold Nubia has, they can buy a lot of riflemen.

If we are going to raze Nubian cities, I would skip the one with the Hanseatic League.

 

[Northern Pike]

The constraining factor in unit rushes by the Nubians will be their modest number of cities, not their wealth, so I don't think that's a great concern.

 

[Greebley]

I think we can go after Nubia and keep the cities too. As NP states, the front line of the war is no longer if we take out Nubia and then south compared to Indo-china and South.

In fact I think the front line for Israel will be better than Indo-china.

With Nubia weaker and having fewer cities the gold should be substantial and fast. After Nubia we will have plenty to spend and all units upgraded for the Israel war.

My vote is definitely Nubia and keep the cities. We can cash rush some defenders and end up better defended than with Indo-China.

 

[Elephantium]

I actually think we should take out the French next rather than diverting to Nubia. Both civs have a 15-turn deal left (as of the last save I can see), so our units will have to wait around for a bit either way. Also, Nubia might suddenly be poor by the time we can attack them. Tech trading seems to be swingy that way.

We could attack Indo-China at the end of JJ's turnset, but that requires moving our entire army to the other end of our empire. It looks like slow units will take 15 turns to get from Old China to Czar's Gold, so our attack would be a bit thin on defenders.

I've been thinking of this order: Hit France, then Inca (now we hold the choke point), then Nubia, then Israel, then roll through the cluster of civs around Canada and Indo-China.

 

[LKendter]

ROSTER:

LKendter
Greebley
Jersey Joe (up - still playing)
Elephantium (on deck)
Northern Pike

 

[Northern Pike]

I've been thinking of this order: Hit France, then Inca (now we hold the choke point), then Nubia, then Israel, then roll through the cluster of civs around Canada and Indo-China.

I understand the appeal of this as map strategy, since we'd never have to reverse the direction of our armies. My objections are that we'd be delaying any significant accumulation of loot for two more campaigns, and that we'd be wasting the opportunity to attack the Nubians while they're weak relative to us, which is rare and precious at this point in the game.