LK86 - Two great variant in one. RaR and AWM.
- Thread starter LKendter
- Start date
Doc Tsiolkovski
Deity
How do you turn the rally point off 
? No clue...
Sacrificing is really useful to instantly expand borders with enemy units closeby. Otherwise we'd need to wait 10 turns.
And, we're almost drowning in Slaves anyway.
? No clue...Sacrificing is really useful to instantly expand borders with enemy units closeby. Otherwise we'd need to wait 10 turns.
And, we're almost drowning in Slaves anyway.
Preturn: Things look good. A few minor changes based on personal preference.
IBT: Lose two Cuirassier near the front line to speed 2 units from the fog.
960 AD: Attack and Capture Koln.
970 AD: Kill a whole bunch of enemy units. Lose one Cuirassier.
Line up some attacks on enemy towns.
IBT: Ouch, one of our armies gets bushwacked by an elephant and killed. Its hit points dropped too low as it couldn't kill a Pike.
Gain Economics.
980 AD: Capture Munchen.
990 AD: Kill nearby units and heal.
IBT: The elephants are annoying. I lose a Cuirassier, and Marmaluk to them that weren't defended by a Pike.
1000 AD: Get a Leader. Capture Frankfurt.
IBT: A unit lost
1010 AD: Use the Leader for an Army to replace the one that was lost. Capture Hannover.
1020 AD: Capture Hamburg and Leipzig (though leipzig will likely fall again on the IBT)
IBT: Yep, Elephants take Leipzig
1030 AD: We capture Leipzig again
1040 AD: We capture Bremen.
1050 AD: My attack on Konigsburg totally Suxors. Every attack fails and we lose 4 units without killing a pike.
Notes:
We have an annoying number of workers. I didn't join any into cities yet, but I think we want to do this. We may even want to join captured units of civs that are already dead into our cities. Keep the workers though. An instant border expansion is hugely useful for frontline cities.
I sacrificed one worker for every captured city pretty much.
Because I captured German cities we want to go for them first. They have 4 more cities.
We are up to 49% of the world population for a gain of +10%. The game will probably end in the 1-3 players.
Didn't play in top form. Lost a few more units than I should have.
Didn't notice anything about rally points
IBT: Lose two Cuirassier near the front line to speed 2 units from the fog.
960 AD: Attack and Capture Koln.
970 AD: Kill a whole bunch of enemy units. Lose one Cuirassier.
Line up some attacks on enemy towns.
IBT: Ouch, one of our armies gets bushwacked by an elephant and killed. Its hit points dropped too low as it couldn't kill a Pike.
Gain Economics.
980 AD: Capture Munchen.
990 AD: Kill nearby units and heal.
IBT: The elephants are annoying. I lose a Cuirassier, and Marmaluk to them that weren't defended by a Pike.
1000 AD: Get a Leader. Capture Frankfurt.
IBT: A unit lost
1010 AD: Use the Leader for an Army to replace the one that was lost. Capture Hannover.
1020 AD: Capture Hamburg and Leipzig (though leipzig will likely fall again on the IBT)
IBT: Yep, Elephants take Leipzig
1030 AD: We capture Leipzig again
1040 AD: We capture Bremen.
1050 AD: My attack on Konigsburg totally Suxors. Every attack fails and we lose 4 units without killing a pike.
Notes:
We have an annoying number of workers. I didn't join any into cities yet, but I think we want to do this. We may even want to join captured units of civs that are already dead into our cities. Keep the workers though. An instant border expansion is hugely useful for frontline cities.
I sacrificed one worker for every captured city pretty much.
Because I captured German cities we want to go for them first. They have 4 more cities.
We are up to 49% of the world population for a gain of +10%. The game will probably end in the 1-3 players.
Didn't play in top form. Lost a few more units than I should have.
Didn't notice anything about rally points
grs
nameless one
lurker's comment: This team seems far too strong for a AWM 
Doc Tsiolkovski
Deity
I see us totally agreeing on this
The rally point: I'm still not sure how that works. I think any time I catched a unit heading for the RP, and cancelled its orders, the rally point was disabled for that particular city. That's why you couldn't see much of that.
grs, looks like. But it was worth to be tested; you need different strategies for AW RaR, simply because XccX city placement doesn't help, and the Govs are different.
Guess we could skip AWE, and head straight to AWDG with a strong Civ (Japan seems the absolute top choice to me, or Sioux) and a good start.
I suspect the jump between emporer level and DG level to be very large. The reason is that the AI always settles in place with 1 setler, but with two they will pick and choose the second. This gives them a much greater chance of getting some kind of food resource and not have a town of max size 2.
In this game we had the RaR equivalent of a 2-3 cows start. If we tried AW RaR again, I would prefer AWE, but not give ourselves such a huge food advantage as we had in this one.
In this game we had the RaR equivalent of a 2-3 cows start. If we tried AW RaR again, I would prefer AWE, but not give ourselves such a huge food advantage as we had in this one.
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I don't see it happening. With all the enslavement rules the classic AW problem of lack of workers is eliminated.
Worker sacrifice breaks another major problem of AW with no problem of getting cultural expansions. Even if we didn't get the great shrine wonder we never have to spend time building culture to hit domination. This makes production timing and choices a lot easier.
With the higher amount of luxuries in RaR the happy problems of AW are much less likely.
I could go on, but I simply don't like RaR fought AW style. I didn't enjoy this game at all.
Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Microbe
Doc Tsiolkovski
Greebley
Meldor (currently playing)
Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
It will drop to 5 to 10 turns in the industrial age. Well, if we even see it.
I do agree that RaR is less suited to AW than C3C. The food bonus is another example - if you don't get a food bonus you are playing AW with a single city stuck at size 2.
Doc, I also have to agree with Lee that the sacrificing seems unbalanced. My suggestion would be to lower the amount of culture you get for worker sacrifice to 4 or 5 so that there is at least some reason to build cultural buildings (you would then have to sacrifice 3 or 2 workers to get an expansion). I also find I tend not to build happiness buildings either due to the number of lux (though to be honest, I also don't really like the marketplace effect in normal C3C either - why should one building give up to +12 happiness?)
So my RaR game balance suggestions are:
1) Lower worker sacrifice to 4 (or 5)
2) Change some (20%-30%?) of the current lux to bonus resources instead (I would still have more than 8 - just not as many as there are now).
Doc, I also have to agree with Lee that the sacrificing seems unbalanced. My suggestion would be to lower the amount of culture you get for worker sacrifice to 4 or 5 so that there is at least some reason to build cultural buildings (you would then have to sacrifice 3 or 2 workers to get an expansion). I also find I tend not to build happiness buildings either due to the number of lux (though to be honest, I also don't really like the marketplace effect in normal C3C either - why should one building give up to +12 happiness?)
So my RaR game balance suggestions are:
1) Lower worker sacrifice to 4 (or 5)
2) Change some (20%-30%?) of the current lux to bonus resources instead (I would still have more than 8 - just not as many as there are now).
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Another thing is this game NEVER had any economy problems. Trying to keep the economy from self-destructing is part of the AW challenge. I never felt the need to build income or research buildings.
Now some of this could simply be the power of the starting position...
Now some of this could simply be the power of the starting position...
That one I would attribue to the start and diff level. If we had played Monarchy level C3C with a settler factory start we would have also had no problems with our economy.
Doc Tsiolkovski
Deity
I've played one and a half RaR AWEs, and several flaws of this game were simply not present.
1) The Happiness. We were REL, and had Incense at the second city. We had insane amounts of Luxuries right from the start. Imagine we'd try LK88 as AW...
2) The Economy. Especially during chiefdom, a huge problem in my games. I sometimes couldn't build any more units, since the upkeep/maintenance was already 50% of my income.
3) Too easy. That was not only the level, it was mostly the reason we had a great start, while our only nearby neighbor was completely screwed - Bangkok couldn't grow above size 3 (and only because Siam is AGR).
4) The AI Civs. India and Siam are about the easiest Civs to fight against. Aztecs start with Jags. Imagine to fight gainst Sioux with a fresh-water start; they often hold about 40% of world's population very soon.
5) The map: We had the safest possible corner.
I fully agree this game wasn't anywhere close. But RaR AW games don't have to be so.
Sacrificing: Not possibly. The cp gained by it are i * sp cost of the unit. i = integer that could be choosen at least; oddly enough, I cannot find it anymore in the 1.15 or 1.22 editor. It is possible this value is no longer accessable; hoever, you could only use integers anyway. I would much prefer to set it to 5 or 10, and disable sacrificing for Workers, allowing only Slaves to be sacrificed.
And, the AI uses sacrifices as well, so this is not only an advantage for the human.
OTOH, while there are several issues easier in RaR, others are more difficult - at foremost, Settlers to replace cities are much harder to come by usaully. Then, there is no great AW Gov until Absolutism.
I for one will start a AWDG small map game soon.
1) The Happiness. We were REL, and had Incense at the second city. We had insane amounts of Luxuries right from the start. Imagine we'd try LK88 as AW...
2) The Economy. Especially during chiefdom, a huge problem in my games. I sometimes couldn't build any more units, since the upkeep/maintenance was already 50% of my income.
3) Too easy. That was not only the level, it was mostly the reason we had a great start, while our only nearby neighbor was completely screwed - Bangkok couldn't grow above size 3 (and only because Siam is AGR).
4) The AI Civs. India and Siam are about the easiest Civs to fight against. Aztecs start with Jags. Imagine to fight gainst Sioux with a fresh-water start; they often hold about 40% of world's population very soon.
5) The map: We had the safest possible corner.
I fully agree this game wasn't anywhere close. But RaR AW games don't have to be so.
Sacrificing: Not possibly. The cp gained by it are i * sp cost of the unit. i = integer that could be choosen at least; oddly enough, I cannot find it anymore in the 1.15 or 1.22 editor. It is possible this value is no longer accessable; hoever, you could only use integers anyway. I would much prefer to set it to 5 or 10, and disable sacrificing for Workers, allowing only Slaves to be sacrificed.
And, the AI uses sacrifices as well, so this is not only an advantage for the human.
OTOH, while there are several issues easier in RaR, others are more difficult - at foremost, Settlers to replace cities are much harder to come by usaully. Then, there is no great AW Gov until Absolutism.
I for one will start a AWDG small map game soon.
- Joined
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- Messages
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Doc Tsiolkovski said:
This is the other big reason don't like AW with RaR. I felt forced to have to capture AI cities. I had no easy way to raze and replace. This game we were lucky to have the free shrine wonder for culture. If we didn't how many flips would we have suffered? What if the captured cities were a lot closer to the core and we were forced to starve productive cities and still hear complaints about fighting the mother country.
A key city flipping can be a disaster in AW. I don't like to play AW without being able to raze and replace except for a few strategic cities. Raze and replace isn't viable in RaR. This alone insures that I personally will never mix the two again.
I would be willing to try that game, Doc Count me in if/when you start it. I expect it will be very challenging.
Too bad about the sacrificing. BTW, how did they get slaves to be worth only 2 culture then? Also I a have been trying to figure out when you get slaves and when you get workers (I assume you get peasants, laborers, engineers only when you capture a worker of that type). Any idea on how that works?
Count me in if/when you start it. I expect it will be very challenging. Too bad about the sacrificing. BTW, how did they get slaves to be worth only 2 culture then? Also I a have been trying to figure out when you get slaves and when you get workers (I assume you get peasants, laborers, engineers only when you capture a worker of that type). Any idea on how that works?
Doc Tsiolkovski
Deity
Exactly. And Slaves have a shield cost of 1 only.
grs
nameless one
lurker's comment:
I'd like to book a spot for this one
meldor
Deity
Man, it is going to be a long string...
meldor
Deity
1050 AD (0)
OK, I thought things didn't look too good in certain areas until I realized the camels were ours even though the color didn't match. We are at 49%/59%. Lets see what we can do.
(I) Pikeman kills Heavy Horse at New Damascus. (1-0)
1060 AD (1)
Kill Bab elephant. Kill a Jomon and get an elite. Killing a Persian Man-at-Arms gives us another elite. Take out 2 Men-at Arms and an Arquebusier (all Persian) in another stack. Next is a Indian Heavy Horseman. Kill a German Pike near Berlin (9-0). Set up to attack the cities of Konigsberg, Berlin and Nimrud next turn. There is an Indian Pike and Pioneer but I will wait until after they cross the river. Rush about 2K worth of Infrastructure.
(I) Pike retreats one German Knight and kills another going elite. We lose a Cuirassier. (10-1)
1070 AD (2)
We autoraze Nimrud and get 379g for our troubles, killing 2 pikes. Kill two elite Pikes and a 1hp Knight to raze Konigsberg, we do lose a Mameluk. Lose a Cuirassier trying to rid us of the last German elite pike behind our lines. (15-3)
(I) We go 1-2 at New Damascus. (16-4). We get Smith's.
1080 AD (3)
Kill 5 Bab elephants, the German pikeman and an MDI in the north. Next is 1 Shoni, 1 pike and 1 Cavalier in the south. I used some of the troops at Berlin to take out a few of the elephants, so the assualt will wait. (26-4) I am waiting to gather enough troops to push forward.
(I) Nada.
1090 AD (4)
Kill 4 units in the south. Kill 1 more in the north. Take out 3 pikes in Berlin. (34-4)
(I) Units move in, no attacks.
1100 AD (5)
Kill 5 units in the south including a Musket, lose a Mam. Three more pikes die in Berlin. (42-5). Found some filler cities. We are now at 52%/62%.
(I) We lose two units on defense in the south. (42-7)
1110 AD (6)
Kill 4 elephants in the north and one more pike dies as we capture Berlin (size 1). Kill 4 more units in the south. Units advance on Nuremberg. (51-7)
(I) Nada.
1120 AD (7)
Kill 3 units in Nuremberg and capture the city. Kill 2 stray units in the north and one in the south. kill 3 units and raze the city of Indus. (60-7)
(I) Lose a pike to counters. (60-8)
1130 AD (8)
Kill 3 units, losing a Mam and capture Heidlberg destroying the Germans. Kill 2 units in the south. (65-8)
(I) We lose a Mam to counters. (65-9)
1140 AD (9)
Kill two units and raze Lagash netting 528g. Get to kill only 2 stray units. (69-9)
(I)Nada.
1150 AD (10)
Only 1 unit to kill. (70-9)
There are enough units in the south now to finish off the Spanish and take on whomever we want. The Armies can sontinue to push the north with some support units.
We are at 56%/65% so this one is over.
OK, I thought things didn't look too good in certain areas until I realized the camels were ours even though the color didn't match. We are at 49%/59%. Lets see what we can do.
(I) Pikeman kills Heavy Horse at New Damascus. (1-0)
1060 AD (1)
Kill Bab elephant. Kill a Jomon and get an elite. Killing a Persian Man-at-Arms gives us another elite. Take out 2 Men-at Arms and an Arquebusier (all Persian) in another stack. Next is a Indian Heavy Horseman. Kill a German Pike near Berlin (9-0). Set up to attack the cities of Konigsberg, Berlin and Nimrud next turn. There is an Indian Pike and Pioneer but I will wait until after they cross the river. Rush about 2K worth of Infrastructure.
(I) Pike retreats one German Knight and kills another going elite. We lose a Cuirassier. (10-1)
1070 AD (2)
We autoraze Nimrud and get 379g for our troubles, killing 2 pikes. Kill two elite Pikes and a 1hp Knight to raze Konigsberg, we do lose a Mameluk. Lose a Cuirassier trying to rid us of the last German elite pike behind our lines. (15-3)
(I) We go 1-2 at New Damascus. (16-4). We get Smith's.
1080 AD (3)
Kill 5 Bab elephants, the German pikeman and an MDI in the north. Next is 1 Shoni, 1 pike and 1 Cavalier in the south. I used some of the troops at Berlin to take out a few of the elephants, so the assualt will wait. (26-4) I am waiting to gather enough troops to push forward.
(I) Nada.
1090 AD (4)
Kill 4 units in the south. Kill 1 more in the north. Take out 3 pikes in Berlin. (34-4)
(I) Units move in, no attacks.
1100 AD (5)
Kill 5 units in the south including a Musket, lose a Mam. Three more pikes die in Berlin. (42-5). Found some filler cities. We are now at 52%/62%.
(I) We lose two units on defense in the south. (42-7)
1110 AD (6)
Kill 4 elephants in the north and one more pike dies as we capture Berlin (size 1). Kill 4 more units in the south. Units advance on Nuremberg. (51-7)
(I) Nada.
1120 AD (7)
Kill 3 units in Nuremberg and capture the city. Kill 2 stray units in the north and one in the south. kill 3 units and raze the city of Indus. (60-7)
(I) Lose a pike to counters. (60-8)
1130 AD (8)
Kill 3 units, losing a Mam and capture Heidlberg destroying the Germans. Kill 2 units in the south. (65-8)
(I) We lose a Mam to counters. (65-9)
1140 AD (9)
Kill two units and raze Lagash netting 528g. Get to kill only 2 stray units. (69-9)
(I)Nada.
1150 AD (10)
Only 1 unit to kill. (70-9)
There are enough units in the south now to finish off the Spanish and take on whomever we want. The Armies can sontinue to push the north with some support units.
We are at 56%/65% so this one is over.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2001
- Messages
- 20,061
Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
My final got it, and maybe the game wrap-up.
Microbe (on deck)
Doc Tsiolkovski
Greebley
Meldor
Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
It will drop to 5 to 10 turns in the industrial age. Well, if we even see it.
LKendter (currently playing)
My final got it, and maybe the game wrap-up.
Microbe (on deck)
Doc Tsiolkovski
Greebley
Meldor
Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
It will drop to 5 to 10 turns in the industrial age. Well, if we even see it.
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