London calling [Student tuition fees and the protests]

[Mise]

It's depressing that the police are still so utterly attrocious at handling large protests, especially given all the negative press they received after killing a man during the G20 protests.

 

[Patroklos]

Is it all that bad? It seems to me the general opinion of the British public is that these are petulant children just having a good time smashing completely unrelated people's property.

Hell, internationally I think most people are cheering on the police each time they take down another spoiled brat taking pictures of the random car window he just shattered with his blackberry that he will post on facebook using his iMac to show what an angsty super hipster rebel he is.

The fact that some people here seem to be cheering on the violence is not really representative.

 

[Arakhor]

The violence really isn't representative either, but petulant brats kicking in car windows is newsworthy, whereas protests against the government's latest "inspired" idea are not.

 

[Patroklos]

Looking at the crowds participating I don't think those participating in violence and vandalism are as few as some in this thread would have us believe.

Guess what I do when the group I am with start resorting to violence or otherwise do stupid crap? I beat their ass and turn them in. Why do so many protesters not get this?

I would have more sympathy for the "but its just a small sliver of us" types if there weren't as many praising their stick it to the manesque violence at the same time.

 

[Mise]

Is it all that bad? It seems to me the general opinion of the British public is that these are petulant children just having a good time smashing completely unrelated people's property.

Actually, twice as many people sympathise with the protestors than oppose, and 50% more people oppose the cuts to university funding than support them. Obviously, the overwhelming majority oppose the damage caused to the Conservative party's HQ. (Source: http://today.yougov.co.uk/sites/today.yougov.co.uk/files/YG-Archives-Pol-ST-results-121110_0.pdf)

It would be nice if you kept your uninformed (and wrong) preconceptions of British public opinion to yourself, thanks.

 

[holy king]

like saddam before, the only language the british government seems to understand is violence.

 

[Mise]

Oh and here's a picture of some school girls protecting a police van from further vandalism.

(from Guardian)

They are conscious of what they look like – angelic spirits of 1968. Their school ties are knotted around their heads as if dressing up as the Woodstock generation for a classroom history play, but this act of street theatre is for real. Some who were at the student protests this week accuse police of deliberately leaving a solitary van in the middle of the "kettled" crowd to invite trouble and provide incriminating media images of an out-of-control mob attacking it. Whatever, the schoolgirls who brought attacks on the police vehicle to an end by standing around it with linked hands in flower-power poses understood the power of images better than their elders.

For this picture tells a lot, very quickly. It tells us the menace of violence is real as anger grows among groups directly afflicted by the coalition's cuts. Yet it also reveals that most protesters are peaceful, idealistic, with a sense of history and of the gravity of their actions. Most of all it tells us how amazingly young many of them are.

 

[tycoonist]

Looking at the crowds participating I don't think those participating in violence and vandalism are as few as some in this thread would have us believe.

Guess what I do when the group I am with start resorting to violence or otherwise do stupid crap? I beat their ass and turn them in. Why do so many protesters not get this?

I would have more sympathy for the "but its just a small sliver of us" types if there weren't as many praising their stick it to the manesque violence at the same time.

Patrokolos, I was there (at least for the first main protest) so hopefully you can trust some first hand evidence.

The number engaging in violent behaviour/vandalism WAS EXTREMELY LOW. They just all centered to the same place, so the media gets a few nice shots. The vast majority of the protesters don't sympathise with the violent ones either, I think you'll find. I, like most of us, can understand their frustration and motives, but that doesn't mean we approve of the method in which they show that.

 

[tycoonist]

i dont get this argument, fees arent paid up front, and loan doesnt have to repaid till your earning £15,000 a year, £21,000 after the fees go up, and if you have a degree youve got similar earning potential, also a lot of my friends get all kinds of grants and bursaries, so their actually better off

and if people care so much about their education, why are they taking so much time off from classes, theres another day of annoying disruptiveness on tuesday, as a student the so called students movement annoy me more and more as time goes on, most of them are the kind of people who claim to be socialist but have iphones, and also no idea about economics at all

No, fees aren't paid up front, and no, they don't have to be repaid immediately.

However, those who come from a rich background will find it much easier to cope with these changes. In fact many of my friends (I go to private school - my parents choice, not mine) are welcoming the changes, as it will ease competition. With no kind of financial support from your family, paying back a loan of around £50000 (once living expenses are taken into account) is a huge mountain to climb - in fact, they are thinking of changing the no interest policy, which will make the situation doubly worse.

The fact of the matter is, this kind of policy is going to hit the poor far more than the rich. And I think we can all agree that that isn't something we should want to happen.

Furthermore, this next generation of university students are going to be the ones paying for this country's police, healthcare, education, probably your pension as well. We shouldn't be looking to cripple that. UK has long been one of the top countries in the world for higher education, it would be better if we could stay there.

 

[cubsfan6506]

Threds like this makes make me sad that the Great Society failed.

 

[ComradeDavo]

It's depressing that the police are still so utterly attrocious at handling large protests, especially given all the negative press they received after killing a man during the G20 protests.

The metro today talked about how they sprayed a fire estiguisher at the crowd that contained toxic material, and also how the police van that got smashed up and then 'protected' was left there as bait for the students.

 

[Mise]

Pretty sick that the police would do something like that. Cynical bastards.

 

[Arakhor]

The Met don't exactly have the best reputation amongst our nation's bobbies, but still, that's pretty disgusting.

 

[ComradeDavo]

Found the links:

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/848467-toxic-extinguisher-fired-at-student-protesters-by-police-medic

In pictures, the officer can be seen discharging the halon device – banned for civilian use because of its environmental impact – above the head of a demonstrator during Wednesday’s march against increased tuition fees.

The protester shuts his eyes as someone behind him shields their face with their hands.

One witness was quoted on Indymedia as saying: ‘I saw the shocking sight of a police medic putting his arm through the officers in front of him and spraying a BCF halon fire extinguisher at the faces of some of the protesters caught at the front of the crowd.’

Halon extinguishers contain toxic elements such as bromine and fluorine, and have been linked to breathing difficulties, skin and eye irritation, dizziness and even unconsciousness.

Metropolitan Police denied using the extinguishers for crowd control and said halon devices were chiefly deployed to put out fires on people.

Footage from the demonstration in Whitehall showed a bus shelter and piles of placards on fire but, in photographs of the police medic, flames cannot be seen. The Met said some student demonstrators had been igniting aerosol sprays and that paramedics had treated burns victims.

A spokesman added: ‘Given this information, it is correct operational procedure that officers would have the fire extinguisher in their hands ready for immediate use if presented with this situation.

‘The pin is always removed so its use is instantaneous.

‘By design, these fire extinguishers are extremely sensitive and can easily be discharged by sudden movement or pressure.’

Police forces are exempt from the ban on halon devices, as ruled by the Home Office.

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/848483-police-deny-attacked-van-was-left-as-bait-at-student-protests

Demonstrators accused police of deliberately abandoning the van as ‘bait’ so that protesters would damage it.

Media coverage of the vandalised van could undermine the protest or it may have been left as a target to defuse the threat of violence between officers and rioters, it was claimed.

‘The police van was a complete set up, conveniently planted right in the middle of the street with no police anywhere near it,’ said one protester who took part in the march in Westminster on Wednesday.

Another added: ‘They’ve taken off the number plates and it’s an old model.’

But Scotland Yard insisted officers in the van had been following the march before being surrounded.

‘The officers felt vulnerable and decided the best course of action was to leave the van,’ said a spokesman.

 

[Mise]

Why would you leave the van??? Surely you'd drive off, you know, in the van. Where it's safe. Rather than strolling out into the crowd that you are apparently afraid of. Those policemen must have been pretty god damn stupid to leave the van like that.

 

[ComradeDavo]

Why would you leave the van??? Surely you'd drive off, you know, in the van. Where it's safe. Rather than strolling out into the crowd that you are apparently afraid of. Those policemen must have been pretty god damn stupid to leave the van like that.

And had time to remove the number plates as well!

 

[pob]

Could someone answer whether you can arrest a police officer for brutality? (Not that the tactics used so far have been that bad, but it is likely to get worse)

If I see a police officer battening someone who is part of a legal and peaceful protest, would I be able to perform a civilian arrest (properly called an "any person arrest") for battery/assault?

As far as I can see, it would satisfy the conditions for a civilian arrest in England:
# The officer is in the act of committing an indictable offence
# It is not reasonably practicable for a constable to make the arrest instead (as the nearby police are busy "controlling" the crowd and won't listen to complaints from Joe Public)
# There are reasonable grounds for believing that the arrest is necessary to prevent the officer causing physical injury to the protester

(sorry if this post hijacks the thread, I think it is relevant)

 

[Bill3000]

Threds like this makes make me sad that the Great Society failed.

Great Society was in America, dude

 

[ComradeDavo]

Could someone answer whether you can arrest a police officer for brutality? (Not that the tactics used so far have been that bad, but it is likely to get worse)

If I see a police officer battening someone who is part of a legal and peaceful protest, would I be able to perform a civilian arrest (properly called an "any person arrest") for battery/assault?

As far as I can see, it would satisfy the conditions for a civilian arrest in England:
# The officer is in the act of committing an indictable offence
# It is not reasonably practicable for a constable to make the arrest instead (as the nearby police are busy "controlling" the crowd and won't listen to complaints from Joe Public)
# There are reasonable grounds for believing that the arrest is necessary to prevent the officer causing physical injury to the protester

I don't know the answer, but you need to factor in that police use things like 'terror laws' to attempt to justify breaking up protests on some occasions, and thats all kinds of murky territory.

 

[Traitorfish]

Pretty sick that the police would do something like that. Cynical bastards.

Hardly surprising, though. I mean, this is the Met we're talking about; if they're not shooting you in the back for being of the wrong ethnicity, they're having a good day.