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Lords of the Rising Sun (Pre-NES)
- Thread starter kkmo
- Start date
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
It might be wise to provide some recommended background reading for those players not as intimately familiar with the Sengoku jidai as yourself, kkmo.
kkmo
世界
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- Messages
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Good idea, Thlayli. Though I am happy that most are not familiar, as it gives us a fun chance to dramatically change history.
Though true, I would like some common knowledge to be known. I will compile some links, many of which are from the site Samurai Archives (not as good as a book, but it will suffice for what we are doing).Also, any one can ask me anything if they would like at any time during this game. I will provide some info about anything on the map or any concept that is not understood. Please feel free to bug me.
Still trucking along on the map and stats. Thanks for being patient, everyone!
Oh, while you all wait this is an excellent article on military aspects of the daimyo. That is a recommended read or skim.
edit: Another thing to add is that the finished stats will have descriptions for each major clan. That will help as well.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Not to complicate matters, but Uesugi Kagetora, as far as I can tell, didn't get adopted until 1569, since he originally came as a hostage from the Hojo.
kkmo
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He is 8 years old at this point. I put him down as a note more than anything else, but yes I should edit that when we start to say 'Unclear Heir' for Kenshin, as that was an issue. That kid is a potential bargaining chip.
(which turned out to be useless and suicidal IRL)
kkmo
世界
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I'm sure there are some small errors here and there, but here is my latest progress on our map. This has taken me a fairly long time. Sorry it's nothing flashy. Thanks again to Eltain for all his help.
Significant / important / cultural cities are circles.
Significant / important castles are squares.
Obviously there is no way to put all castles on the map. There were tons of minor ones. So we won't do that. Only the major ones. Just assume that there are lots of castles, but many were so small and a lot of them were simply glorified mansions (which is why I am not putting them all on the map).
Forgot this:
Tohoku:
Nanbu
Mogami
Date
Ashina
Kanto, Tokai, Kinai, etc.:
Uesugi
Satake
Satomi
Hojo
Imagawa
Takeda
Saito
Oda
Asakura
Asai
Sasaki
Miyoshi
Hatano
Matsunaga
Ikko
Chugoku:
Ukita
Yamana
Amako
Mori
Shikoku:
Chosokabe
Ichijo
Kyushu:
Ryuzoji
Matsuura
Omura
Arima
Otomo
Ito
Shimazu
Significant / important / cultural cities are circles.
Significant / important castles are squares.
Obviously there is no way to put all castles on the map. There were tons of minor ones. So we won't do that. Only the major ones. Just assume that there are lots of castles, but many were so small and a lot of them were simply glorified mansions (which is why I am not putting them all on the map).
Spoiler :
Forgot this:
Tohoku:
Nanbu
Mogami
Date
Ashina
Kanto, Tokai, Kinai, etc.:
Uesugi
Satake
Satomi
Hojo
Imagawa
Takeda
Saito
Oda
Asakura
Asai
Sasaki
Miyoshi
Hatano
Matsunaga
Ikko
Chugoku:
Ukita
Yamana
Amako
Mori
Shikoku:
Chosokabe
Ichijo
Kyushu:
Ryuzoji
Matsuura
Omura
Arima
Otomo
Ito
Shimazu
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Yeah, not to mention that he's not yet Uesugi Kasetora, I believe.
Very impressive map thus far...though technically Takeda Shingen didn't build Matsushiro until this very year, I guess it counts.
Very impressive map thus far...though technically Takeda Shingen didn't build Matsushiro until this very year, I guess it counts.
kkmo
世界
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- Messages
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Thanks Thlayli. I'm noticing some technical errors now, such as Kyoto not being labeled, but still working on it. Yeah - didn't get his new name until the adoption. Matsushiro wasn't finished until this year, but it will be under construction when we begin.
Masada, welcome! I'd rather people play as clans, but if you are interested in the Jesuit presence in Japan, there are two clans I would recommend to you: Arima or Ichijo. Out of those two I would choose Arima, as Ichijo's current daimyo is extremely weak and not well-liked by his retainers. Their fief is also tiny compared to neighbors. Arima's fief is also small, but they have a presence on several islands in Kyushu and potential massive powers nearby (Shimazu and Otomo), and one smaller, aggressive neighbor (Ryuzoji). Even though you have such neighbors, you have contact with foreigners (Portuguese), including the Jesuits. Arima's territories had a large Jesuit population. While the Arima were often persecuting Christians, you could turn that around as player. It would be easy as the Arima to anger some of your more powerful neighbors by siding with one of them.
Also, I forgot whether or not there is a player as Otomo (is Neverwonagame still around?), but they are a very powerful clan and incredibly interesting for anyone wanting to deal with Jesuits. Otomo Yoshishige has converted to Christianity (probably for political gain), and his name will change in 2 years to Otomo Sorin. The Otomo have a lot of potential, but you would begin at war with the Mori.
Masada, welcome! I'd rather people play as clans, but if you are interested in the Jesuit presence in Japan, there are two clans I would recommend to you: Arima or Ichijo. Out of those two I would choose Arima, as Ichijo's current daimyo is extremely weak and not well-liked by his retainers. Their fief is also tiny compared to neighbors. Arima's fief is also small, but they have a presence on several islands in Kyushu and potential massive powers nearby (Shimazu and Otomo), and one smaller, aggressive neighbor (Ryuzoji). Even though you have such neighbors, you have contact with foreigners (Portuguese), including the Jesuits. Arima's territories had a large Jesuit population. While the Arima were often persecuting Christians, you could turn that around as player. It would be easy as the Arima to anger some of your more powerful neighbors by siding with one of them.
Also, I forgot whether or not there is a player as Otomo (is Neverwonagame still around?), but they are a very powerful clan and incredibly interesting for anyone wanting to deal with Jesuits. Otomo Yoshishige has converted to Christianity (probably for political gain), and his name will change in 2 years to Otomo Sorin. The Otomo have a lot of potential, but you would begin at war with the Mori.
kkmo
世界
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- May 22, 2008
- Messages
- 1,245
Oh! It appears Otomo is not taken. I'd love an Otomo player. I hope neverwonagame shows up, because Hojo are pretty important.
Kraznaya: Imagawa
Luckymoose: Mori
Azale: Date
Eltain: Chosokabe
Omega124: Matsuura
Ninja Dude: Ryuzoji
Adrogans: Takeda
? Neverwonagame3: Hojo
Thlayli: Uesugi
flyingchicken: Shimazu
germanicus12: Miyoshi
Anonymoose: Satomi
ChiefDesigner: Ikko
Kozmos: Matsunaga
Masada: ?
GamezRule: Satake
edit: sorry, made some errors on this list.
Kraznaya: Imagawa
Luckymoose: Mori
Azale: Date
Eltain: Chosokabe
Omega124: Matsuura
Ninja Dude: Ryuzoji
Adrogans: Takeda
? Neverwonagame3: Hojo
Thlayli: Uesugi
flyingchicken: Shimazu
germanicus12: Miyoshi
Anonymoose: Satomi
ChiefDesigner: Ikko
Kozmos: Matsunaga
Masada: ?
GamezRule: Satake
edit: sorry, made some errors on this list.
kkmo
世界
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- May 22, 2008
- Messages
- 1,245
Some Recommended Reading
First of all, before reading this, please know that a deep understanding of Japanese history and culture is not necessary to play this NES. Have more confidence in yourself and treat it not only as a game, but also an opportunity.
OK, when we begin I will have a whole "Understanding" section of the rules that will include useful links and other bits of info relevant to Japanese Sengoku culture. It is not required or anything (this is not school), but recommended if you wish to do well in this game. Having some knowledge of what is going on and how things were done during this time is important. This is especially true because we are kind of interpreting this time in history from a Western viewpoint. What I mean by that is we often in the West view history of this time period as having clear, defined borders and leaders. In Sengoku jidai Japan, there were not really borders, but moreso powerful families who held fiefs, and those fiefs would often have smaller families as vassals. Therefore, when you look at the map and see borders, those are estimations more than anything else, based on what families the larger daimyo had under their control during this time. There were certainly province borders during this time, which we know from old maps and writings, but often family holdings went from province to province. Some families even existed on the two opposite sides of Japan, or moved frequently. Knowing this, it is difficult to fully understand this time in history because these daimyo and their clans are not "nations", though they do resemble states (hence, Warring States period).
However, I have designed this game to be very easy in this regard. Minor families are not important, and while they may have held their own small castle within a daimyo's terrain throughout the entire period, they did not do anything notable or have enough of their own wealth to cause a problem. They were essentially left alone. There are exceptions, and many small clans which did cause problems or assisted daimyo in invasions. These are going to be kind of assumed in this game, as mentioning them every time they did something would be troublesome. Those families, any way, were essentially vassals and doing the bidding of the larger daimyo, so mentioning them would be useless (most of the time).
Hundreds of small families dot the whole map right now, but daimyo with colors hold dominion over those families (this can be through formal vassalage, tactical alliances, or even deep friendship). White regions on the map are areas in which no single daimyo had greater dominion. That means so many small families are occupying that space and could potentially claim to be overlords of those areas. You will see some notable cities or castles in those areas, which are often independently controlled and can be conquered by your larger dominion.
Even though we are not getting over-complicated with minor families (what's the point, since they were only family in name, and otherwise occupied by the greater dominions which you all represent), I would like you all to know this information because it will help you think of this as a meaningful, historical NES, and not a "Shogun Total War" NES. Knowing the nuances of what is within your territory will be good for writing stories and so on. Since I can't tell you everything myself, simply googling your clan name, your daimyo (often daimyo entries are more detailed than the clan entries), and all of the places within your territory on the map - will benefit you greatly.
Knowing about these nuances, you will realize that this is not only a time of great warfare, but also of intense intrigue. And by intense, I mean intense! There were backstabbers, loyalists, tricksters, and so on. Some clans want expansion, others desire consolidation, and others just want to survive.
I want this NES to be FUN. With that in mind, we won't be too picky about tiny little details. However, I think it is good to have this NES also be an educational experience for those of you who are not well-versed in Japanese history.
Finally, I would like to dedicate this NES to Tohoku. I was personally effected by the earthquake there in that some of my best, life-long friend's family members are currently in an area with very high radiation. I will not claim to be an expert on Japanese history, but I have been to several of the historical sites in this NES in person, and I have fond memories of that time, speaking to my friend and learning a lot about this era.
* * * * *
Index of Samurai Archives: A decent and rather comprehensive website about this time period. It is the Internet, though, and is of course not as good as a book. There are other articles and websites to be found online as well, some you must pay for. This is the best for our purposes as a game, though. Most links below are from this site. You have to dig through it to find them. Go to "Articles" or search their site.
Military Aspects of the Daimyo: A decent article on militaries during this time period, including organization.
Glossary of Sengoku Terms: This is more for reference. You can find military terms and names here. Not comprehensive, unfortunately.
Japanese Castle Explorer: An excellent map showing many castles with descriptions. Please note that this is very specific, so if your castle shows another clan occupying, that clan was most-likely a vassal. Sometimes this map is inaccurate, too. And also - this map shows many Edo period castles, which were built after our start date. And last but not least, another thing: sometimes castles on our map are shown on this map as being built after 1560 - but please know that many existed before that time, and that the "built" times for those specific castles usually indicate renovations or a new keep being constructed.
Daimyo House Codes: Interesting read, but few clans mentioned.
Samurai Culture: Just for a glimpse.
A history of the gun in Japan: A decent article on guns (arquebus, which are called teppo).
Takeda Shingen vs Uesugi Kenshin: This article is okay for background info. I think comparing these two is kind of pointless, though.
About the Ikko Ikki: Some info about the Ikko uprising and warrior monks.
More to come...
First of all, before reading this, please know that a deep understanding of Japanese history and culture is not necessary to play this NES. Have more confidence in yourself and treat it not only as a game, but also an opportunity.
OK, when we begin I will have a whole "Understanding" section of the rules that will include useful links and other bits of info relevant to Japanese Sengoku culture. It is not required or anything (this is not school), but recommended if you wish to do well in this game. Having some knowledge of what is going on and how things were done during this time is important. This is especially true because we are kind of interpreting this time in history from a Western viewpoint. What I mean by that is we often in the West view history of this time period as having clear, defined borders and leaders. In Sengoku jidai Japan, there were not really borders, but moreso powerful families who held fiefs, and those fiefs would often have smaller families as vassals. Therefore, when you look at the map and see borders, those are estimations more than anything else, based on what families the larger daimyo had under their control during this time. There were certainly province borders during this time, which we know from old maps and writings, but often family holdings went from province to province. Some families even existed on the two opposite sides of Japan, or moved frequently. Knowing this, it is difficult to fully understand this time in history because these daimyo and their clans are not "nations", though they do resemble states (hence, Warring States period).
However, I have designed this game to be very easy in this regard. Minor families are not important, and while they may have held their own small castle within a daimyo's terrain throughout the entire period, they did not do anything notable or have enough of their own wealth to cause a problem. They were essentially left alone. There are exceptions, and many small clans which did cause problems or assisted daimyo in invasions. These are going to be kind of assumed in this game, as mentioning them every time they did something would be troublesome. Those families, any way, were essentially vassals and doing the bidding of the larger daimyo, so mentioning them would be useless (most of the time).
Hundreds of small families dot the whole map right now, but daimyo with colors hold dominion over those families (this can be through formal vassalage, tactical alliances, or even deep friendship). White regions on the map are areas in which no single daimyo had greater dominion. That means so many small families are occupying that space and could potentially claim to be overlords of those areas. You will see some notable cities or castles in those areas, which are often independently controlled and can be conquered by your larger dominion.
Even though we are not getting over-complicated with minor families (what's the point, since they were only family in name, and otherwise occupied by the greater dominions which you all represent), I would like you all to know this information because it will help you think of this as a meaningful, historical NES, and not a "Shogun Total War" NES. Knowing the nuances of what is within your territory will be good for writing stories and so on. Since I can't tell you everything myself, simply googling your clan name, your daimyo (often daimyo entries are more detailed than the clan entries), and all of the places within your territory on the map - will benefit you greatly.
Knowing about these nuances, you will realize that this is not only a time of great warfare, but also of intense intrigue. And by intense, I mean intense! There were backstabbers, loyalists, tricksters, and so on. Some clans want expansion, others desire consolidation, and others just want to survive.
I want this NES to be FUN. With that in mind, we won't be too picky about tiny little details. However, I think it is good to have this NES also be an educational experience for those of you who are not well-versed in Japanese history.
Finally, I would like to dedicate this NES to Tohoku. I was personally effected by the earthquake there in that some of my best, life-long friend's family members are currently in an area with very high radiation. I will not claim to be an expert on Japanese history, but I have been to several of the historical sites in this NES in person, and I have fond memories of that time, speaking to my friend and learning a lot about this era.
* * * * *
Index of Samurai Archives: A decent and rather comprehensive website about this time period. It is the Internet, though, and is of course not as good as a book. There are other articles and websites to be found online as well, some you must pay for. This is the best for our purposes as a game, though. Most links below are from this site. You have to dig through it to find them. Go to "Articles" or search their site.
Military Aspects of the Daimyo: A decent article on militaries during this time period, including organization.
Glossary of Sengoku Terms: This is more for reference. You can find military terms and names here. Not comprehensive, unfortunately.
Japanese Castle Explorer: An excellent map showing many castles with descriptions. Please note that this is very specific, so if your castle shows another clan occupying, that clan was most-likely a vassal. Sometimes this map is inaccurate, too. And also - this map shows many Edo period castles, which were built after our start date. And last but not least, another thing: sometimes castles on our map are shown on this map as being built after 1560 - but please know that many existed before that time, and that the "built" times for those specific castles usually indicate renovations or a new keep being constructed.
Daimyo House Codes: Interesting read, but few clans mentioned.
Samurai Culture: Just for a glimpse.
A history of the gun in Japan: A decent article on guns (arquebus, which are called teppo).
Takeda Shingen vs Uesugi Kenshin: This article is okay for background info. I think comparing these two is kind of pointless, though.
About the Ikko Ikki: Some info about the Ikko uprising and warrior monks.
More to come...
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
A list of ongoing conflicts and treaties at the start of the NES would definitely be useful; I think that Kenshin is in the midst of a campaign against the Hojo as the NES begins.
Very much looking forward to this!
Very much looking forward to this!
kkmo
世界
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- May 22, 2008
- Messages
- 1,245
You are correct! They are at war. Kenshin just overtook Numata Castle. Mori and Otomo are also at war - Mori took Moji Castle in the last few years and the Otomo want it back. A list of conflicts is a great idea. The clan descriptions will also help immensely. I'll get around to that this weekend. Almost finished with stats.
Kraznaya
Princeps
These would be my first choices.
Uesugi
Mori
Hojo
Uesugi
Mori
Hojo
kkmo
世界
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- Messages
- 1,245
Thanks, Kraznaya. I hope I can run it smoothly as well.
OK! Uesugi and Mori are definitely taken. Neverwonagame claimed the Hojo, but he mentioned in another thread that he was quitting NESing. If he doesn't post in here confirming by tomorrow, you can certainly take the Hojo.
We don't have an Oda player. One is not really needed. But they could be attractive because they have a high quality army.
[ Another thing I want to mention is that wars will be fought slowly. Terrain will not be gained quickly necessarily (though really it depends on the circumstances). ]
GamezRule, my apologies. I have edited 'the list'.
OK! Uesugi and Mori are definitely taken. Neverwonagame claimed the Hojo, but he mentioned in another thread that he was quitting NESing. If he doesn't post in here confirming by tomorrow, you can certainly take the Hojo.
We don't have an Oda player. One is not really needed. But they could be attractive because they have a high quality army.
[ Another thing I want to mention is that wars will be fought slowly. Terrain will not be gained quickly necessarily (though really it depends on the circumstances). ]
GamezRule, my apologies. I have edited 'the list'.
Ok
1: Hojo
2: Otomo
3: Oda
1: Hojo
2: Otomo
3: Oda
