LotR3 - SHADOW - Emperor training

Actually, I remember trying to trade with India.
The prices were absurd.

I will have to get into the habit of report NoSale in this thread.
I usually don't report dead end deals.

I agree - tech buying will be nice - However, techs don't go away - Workers do. The workers also help with the AI, since it simply counts total units in considering if you are strong / weak.

Thinking back - I agree temple choice was a bit of weed.

As for yelling over the vet troops - I realize at this high of level - you don't have the luxury to build early barracks.

Luxuries tax - won't agrue. :smoke:


Interesting - what I expect to get slapped on - the new city, was your choice. ;)
 
@brianJ

LAK-056.jpg


One of my major complaints is the the map grid (control-g) is turned off my default. I have never found a way to force it to stay on.

Black lines are Salamanca 21 squares.

Red lines are Grand River 21 squares.

The Yellow lines are probably a dead zone. This may help you in deciding future city placement - control-g is very valueable for me.
The picture with grid may give you a better idea of the issue at hand.
 
Well I had a major difference in my turns, that may have well been weed, but we'll see.

3000 Pre-Turn - Change science slider to 10% - no reason to have it at 20%. I also wonder for a bit why we are at 50% happiness, but I see that we need it to stay happy because our temple in NF isn't done yet. My question is, will the unrest be checked before or after the temple is built? I err on the side of prudence and leave it on 50% for this turn.

I trade Ceremonial Burial to the Russians for Bronze Working.

2950 BC - Salamanca starts a warrior, primarily for NF to help with happiness. NF finishes temple, starts settler. Lux tax reduced to 20%. Not sure what to do about these workers... I send two towards the other wheat and two south, to where I plan of placing the new city, so it can get a jump start on its production, and to eventually connect the dyes. The Indians want WC, Pottery, 3g/turn, and 40 gold for alphabet... a bit too steep.

2900 BC - 2 workers and our settler are moving south towards the proposed city site, on the river. The Indians come down a bit on the price, so I trade them WC and pottery for Alphabet. I then immediately sell it to the Chinese for 47 gold (they wouldn't give me a tech). The Russians have nothing to offer for it.

2850 BC - Salamanca produces warrior and starts on another - at 2 turns per warrior I can finish this one perfectly timed for a Settler next. Lux tax raised to 30% until warrior reaches NF. Begin irrigation of second wheat.

2800 BC - Grand River founded in range of two bonus and one regular grassland (before expansion - several more in range) and on a river.

2750 BC - Salamanca finishes another warrior. Starts on a settler, timed to finish exactly when Salamanca grows. Send 2nd warrior to NF as it is about to expand again. luxury lowered to 10% as first warrior reaches NF. Starting to mine the bonus grassland near Grand River.

2710 BC - South to the S of Russians spies a goody hut and a barbarian! Fortunately, I can get the hut and retreat before the barb gets me. Lux upped again to prevent unhappiness in NF next turn.

2670 BC - We pop a warrior from the hut. I attack the barbarian, and win, earning a promotion to veteran status.

Here is my possible bad move: We hit population 4 in NF, with an outrageous growth curve, but no real way to speed up production due to lack of shields. We have 18 shields left to go on the settler, so I whip. :eek: I figure we are going to use this city for workers and settlers almost exclusively, with two MP's, I think we can manage the 20 turns of extra unhappiness. As for the loss of population, I pondered that for awhile, but since we have SO much food in that city, it seemed worth it to use it to get more cities with shield output. Call me crazy.

2630 BC - Sending the new settler towards Salamanca. My plan is to use this one to build a nice productive city to the west and then use the one from Salamanca itself to grab the cows, which has the added benefit of sealing off our territory (if memory serves). The Russians have the Wheel, so I trade them 60 gold for it. As Murphy’s law would dictate, the only horses in sight are in Russian territory. Guess we won't get Mounted Warriors until AFTER we kill the Russians!

2590 - Grand River finishes its warrior and starts on a temple. Luxuries set to 0! Egypt contacted, Trade the Alphabet for 30 gold (since we already gave it to everyone else, I figure we need to get what we can). I check the histograph - wow we are doing well! First place, and on Emperor!

2550 - Mine completed in GR, road started.

Well there it is, my first turn. Let me have it!!

P.S. I know I'm up in the "real" thread also, but I'd like to get commentary on this before I start. Also, I put the file in the upload area.

Here is my save
 
(0) 2550 BC (I) - ??? What to do with science? I have no way to decide if weed or not. I leave it at 50% as we are so close. Delay won't save much gold. I pray it takes India 3 more turns to get it - he is lacking it.
Trading - I hold off until I see what happens with Mysticism.
:smoke:?? - I cancel the mining of the desert. I want to concentrate of the tiles in use first. Worker sent to the undeveloped wheat.
Egypt formes a city south of Kiev.

(1) 2510 BC - NF grew, but with the double warrior - no need to increase luxuries.
Worker irragted wheat
central scout - w
south scout - s, w
west scout - ne ( the central scout will eventually cover the southern direction)

2510 BC (I) - Barb attack on Salamanca falls - no promotion.
Science decision is tough - I need to see what happens with trading - start Bronze working for a default
GAME QUESTION - Does any research occur between build up beakers?
Salamanca completes settler - orders warrior. Settlers require escort with barb known.
Russia starts the Colossus.

(2) 2470 BC
central scout - sw
west scout - ne
south scout - w, w
salamanca grassland worker - south to mountain - goal, connect spices.
NF is a very frustrating city - shield #3 is wasted - I can't figure out how to get this city any type of decent production.

As fast as it grows whipping effect would last way to long.
The science wait pays - I trade Russian myst and $3 for Masonry - Russia still annoyed.
Myst and $3 buys bw from Egypt.
I can't believe we have an average military compared to them - must be the workers.
Settler begins travelling with escort.
Science choice - Poly at 40 turns, mimimal science - I know that is at the bottom on the AI research order.

(3) 2430 BC -
cs - sw, nw (russian road block)
ws - ne
ss - w, sw
worker - starts road on mountain.

2430 BC (I) - The barb camp may be the fog square near incencse.

(4) 2390 BC -
cs - w, s
ws - e (border spotted)
ss - s, s

2390 BC (I) - Salamanca orders another warrior - I want to hunt down that barb camp.

(5) 2350 bc -
worker on wheat - orders road.
I see Russian build Minsk - heading toward us.
cs - sw, s
ws - e
ss - s (water spotted), se
We are EVEN with Russia for tech :confused:
One thing I will admit I suck at - the higher levels and science trading.
Regent I can usually get a lead. Monarch - I can keep pace. Emperor - clueless.
Oh, well will this get a weed?
Alphabet from China for $48. Sell Alphabet to Russia for $29 - still annoyed - our net cost - $19.

2350 BC (I) - gr orders a temple - we need more culture somewhere.

(6) 2310 BC - The warrior / settler pair are at there planned location - However, with Minsk location - I want to secure the cattle city first.
ws - sw
cs - s, w
ss - se, e

2310 BC (I) - Salamanca survives another barb attack - orders warrior - need 2 mp. Someday I would like a barracks.

(7) 2270 BC - 2 warriors head toward suspected barb camp location.
ws - sw
cs - sw, s
ss - ne, s
nf - we can either go to 30% luxury (costing $4 a turn) or scientist (gain $2).
I go with $24 over the couple of turns to until the settler completes.
@Arathon - If this is weed, then can you explain the cases when you consider slowing city growth worth it?
Science trading decisions are getting hard. How long to I wait for lower prices and Russia getting the tech?
Russia staying stuck at $0 - not much help there.

(8) 2230 BC - Wheat worker heading toward the fp next to plains. Spot is being used. Plus the city in that area will need

irragation to be of any use. This helps nf and the future city.
ws - s
cs - w (China capital spotted), e - I really don't want china asking me to leave again so soon.
ss - ne, e ( I have a feeling where Egypt capital is)

2230 BC (I) - Salamance complete warrior for MP just in time. Orders our first spearman - 4 turns, one after settler.

However settler needs at least 1 turn to get there. Someday I would like a barracks.

(9) 2190 BC - Mining of hill completed - corruption makes it useless.
Hill workers cross to other side of Salamanca.
ws - s
cs - sw, s
ss - e, se (Egypt capital confirmed).

(10) 2150 BC -
ws - s (jungle overload in the area).
cs - w, s
ss - s, w (Thebes appears to be near edge of the map.
This game pisses me off - scientist reset to taxman - did this occur last turn?

Allegheny is formed - Already has 1 defender - orders a temple, close to Russian, and 2nd cow needed.
1 China worker head toward the first gold hill - we will need roads to Allegheny and future city.
Other to grassland by Salamanca.
Barb camp by incense located.
:crazyeye: Start irragation of another fp by nf.
Russia has Wheel and Ironworking - All 4 civs do. Time to trade.
Best pre-haggle price India.
I get wheel for $43 from India.
:mad: We have no potential horses
I get Horseback riding from Egypt for $51.
hr and $28 gets us Iron Working from Russia - why won't Cathy leave annoyed?
We have Iron - to get it, we need either temple in new city or colony or weak city placement.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/lotr3-shadow-LKendter-2150BC.zip

Summary - Where will this one occur - :smoke:
 
Charliehoke, I didn't find your save file. I think you might have had the .SAV vs. .sav problem (upper case extensions don't upload, for mysterious reasons). Thus, you only get an overview review. It's probably worth zipping, too, just for error-checking.

3000 - Happiness is checked BEFORE a building completes, so in this case, prudence was necessary. In general, the penalty for an unrest turn is high enough that it's worth being a bit overcatious. The order is, I believe, happiness first, then food/growth, then shields, then things completing. Not sure when commerce is figured.

Good catch on the science slider. That's one many of the "crew" missed.

Trading CB for BW this early is probably a bit weedy. You can see a border (NW) of people that we know we haven't contacted. The odds are VERY high that they have BW, too, so that by waiting one turn, you can decrease our cost for BW, getting a bit of a surplus out of the deal.

2950 - Wasting some worker turns here. The hill is a reasonably valuable resource. It can be used by either NF or Sala, which means it might well be used a lot. It's on a river, which means it has commerce. Roading it also connects NF and Sala, which cuts corruption (eventually). It's a pretty high priority square to upgrade. The wheat and the area south (depending on where exactly this is) are, too, but getting to them "wastes" turns.

And I doubt you're seeing dyes south. Those are silks -- common "problem" on this thread.

2900 - I like the trade here. Those two techs were going to be valueless soon, and you got a tech and 47 gold for very minimal cost. Kudos on playing the tech broker here.

But workers just moving? It's almost always worth it to be at least roading, as just moving means you're spending worker turns doing nothing, which can come back to haunt you in a hurry. Those lands will need roads eventually, so you're wasting worker turns now and worker turns later.

2800 - I can't tell where you founded GR, but it sounds like the same place Lee and I did. If so, kudos. If not, I'm curious as to where.

2670 - I doubt you earned a promotion to veteran status -- to regular status quite possibly but popped warriors are conscript and thus promote to veteran only. Still, getting the hut -- especially so close to expansionist Russia -- is a coup.

Whipping a settler in NF.... Hmmm... Let's try to examine the move. Ya know, it's hard for me to do that without the save. I'm not sure exactly what squares Sala is working and how quickly NF will grow back and such. The main problem I see is that it means two unhappy citizens for 40 turns, which might be difficult to deal with. We've had some minor problems with one unhappy citizen, but two will be worse. I'm not certain it's still this way in 1.21, but before this, whipping times ADDED, which means this whip makes the first citizen unhappy even longer.

It basically eliminates any whips for 40 turns because 3 unhappy for 60 turns is too painful to contemplate. If we didn't whip now and let one settler build "naturally", and get another 10 shields built up, if we were careful, should have completely eliminated the earlier whip memory, meaning we could whip again then for only 20 turns. I'm not so sure this thinking is right, though. Because these settlers would come later.... And the new city can be doing things while the whip unhappiness is waiting to expire. Of course, there's also the speed of NF's growth while larger to consider. Too many variables....

I'm not gonna call you crazy. I'm not even call the move weedy. It does seem a bit drastic, though. No verdict, sorry. Too little info/my brain's not working well enough today/last night. Sorry.

2630 - If Russia is the only one with the Wheel, trading 60 gold for it is :smoke: because the price would go down as more people learn the tech. The ability to buy it won't go away, but the price can easily plummet. If that 60 gold could've bought two workers, the downside of this purchase is exacerbated. Knowing the location of horses is the wildcard that makes the purchase not too bad, but still VERY questionable.

2590 - Good job shopping Alphabet to Egypt. I'm surprised no one beat you to it. Another "can't wait" opportunity.

Being in first place is MUCH more a function of getting the early settler out of a goodie hut than anything we've done. In a way, I wish we hadn't gotten that benefit, because it makes emperor "too easy" in a way. That's why we're in first.

Not enough info to let you have it...

Arathorn
 
A few comments,

I'm pretty sure you are right about the .SAV file. I'll fix it when I get back from work. I think you are right about my worker movement. That was pretty bad.

China also had the wheel, and I figured I should get it so we could claim any horses that were in range, due to the utility of mounted warriors. Was a bit pricey though.

Yeah, and I meant "regular" when I said "veteren" and "silks" when I said "dyes".

As for the unhappiness, under 1.21 then whipping penalty was changed to 20 turns instead of 40, IIRC...

Thanks! :goodjob:
 
Charlie,

I am aware of the 40/20 difference from 1.16 vs 1.17 vs 1.21. However, there's a point I don't think you're aware of. Whipping penalties add strangely. I think you're envisioning this scenario....

Whip on turn 11
Whip on turn 17
On turn 31, down to 1 unhappy
On turn 37, all whip memory erased

It's this (or it was in 1.16 and I've not seen mention of a change -- I've not actually tested this 1.21)

Whip on turn 11
Whip on turn 17
On turn 57 -- both whip memories fade

There's a massive difference between these two situations. What happens is that the second whip, if the first isn't forgotten, leads to 40 turns of two unhappy citizens from its inception. Similarly, a third whip -- if earlier ones aren't forgotten -- gives 60 turns of 3 unhappy citizens...and so on.

Your settler whip in shadow turns was close enough, timewise, to the first, to not be classified weedy, but if done now, it probably would be weed, because it greatly extends the memory of the first whip. Compare:

Whip turn 3
Whip turn 5
Memory fades turn 45

and

Whip turn 3
Whip turn 22
Memory faded turn 62

and

Whip turn 3
Memory fades turn 23
Whip turn 24
Memory fades turn 44

It is obvious that the middle scenario is by far the worst of the three. That MUST be avoided and would be pretty close to the case in your current turns.

Arathorn
 
The problem is this - since I wasn't involved in the early parts of this game and obviously didn't read as well as I could have (I was with my fiancee... she lives 2000 miles away from me, so when I'm with her I don't follow civ like I should) I didn't realize we had already whipped once in that city. I am aware of the way whipping penalties magnify each other, but I didn't know I was the second whip. Sorry! I should have known because the temple had only one turn. Pure carelessness.

:(
 
Originally posted by charliehoke
The problem is this - since I wasn't involved in the early parts of this game and obviously didn't read as well as I could have (I was with my fiancee... she lives 2000 miles away from me, so when I'm with her I don't follow civ like I should) I didn't realize we had already whipped once in that city. I am aware of the way whipping penalties magnify each other, but I didn't know I was the second whip. Sorry! I should have known because the temple had only one turn. Pure carelessness.

:(

Man, I guess we know who wins the "Who's got a cooler lady, Arizona Steve or charliehoke?" debate.... ;)

(Who am I to talk...I had to negotiate to be able to play 10 turns an evening)
 
(I was with my fiancee... she lives 2000 miles away from me, so when I'm with her I don't follow civ like I should)

Oh, I dunno. If my fiancee lived 2000 miles away and I had a chance to visit, I would follow Civ about 0 hours a day. Maybe even -1. Prioirities, priorities....

I'm glad you played one shadow before your official turn, if just to clear that up. We had indeed whipped there once before -- and that was also worried-to-be-weed but wasn't.

Arathorn
 
Charliehoke wins on the "cool for civving" front, although I still think mine is cooler :) ...

Seriously though, I am having to drop out of this. She has finally got sick of my "computer geek" ways (and who can blame her) and forced me to face up to something known as "real life".

Oh well, no more civving for me for the near future at least :(

Many thanks for your analysis Arathorn. I will remember it if I ever go back to my civving. In the meantime I will sign onto here at work and watch the analysis and the "cool g/f" debates.

Stephen.
 
Originally posted by Arizona_Steve
Charliehoke wins on the "cool for civving" front, although I still think mine is cooler :) ...

Seriously though, I am having to drop out of this. She has finally got sick of my "computer geek" ways (and who can blame her) and forced me to face up to something known as "real life".

Oh well, no more civving for me for the near future at least :(

Many thanks for your analysis Arathorn. I will remember it if I ever go back to my civving. In the meantime I will sign onto here at work and watch the analysis and the "cool g/f" debates.

Stephen.

Steve...I feel your pain...but do what I did: negotiate the right to play *only* 10 turns a night. Basically, that limits you only to SGs...but at the same time, you're playing Civ III...
 
Preturn:
Drop the science rate to 10% as per Arathorns advice.

(1)2510 BC:
Scouts continue their exploration. The central one heads for the land bridge.
East Scout: East to the mountain.
West Scout: South, finding some silk. A Chinese warrior is to the south now.

Intelligence:
Egypt has 2 cities to our 3.
Russia has BW and Masonry. She will sell Masonry or BW for for 50 gold. I decide this is reasonable, since we now have barbarians at our gates.
India will sell BW for 40 gold. SO will China.

I pay 40 gold to China for BW.

China has 2 cities also, as does India. Russia has 3.

The Barb is now north of Salamanca.

(2)2470 BC:
The Barb dies after wounding our defending warrior.

Salamanca completes a settler and starts a spear.

We get a note that the Russians are building the Colossus.

Our settler moves south, preparing to move west and head for the gold tiles. I decide against sending an escort for now. I don't want to have to raise the luxury rate.

Our worker moves to the grass square west of Salamanca across the river.

Our worker south of the Falls finishes its mine, and its weed, and heads north for the wheat field.

Egypt has expanded towards Russia, I spot their borders. The Scout south of Moscow does some mountian hopping to the East. The scout to the west spots the mother of all Silk colonies.

(3)2430 BC:
A Chinese warrior kindly kills a barb that our scout would have run into.

Scouts continue exploring and the worker on the grassland builds a road. I"m thinking I want freer movement if I have to move a defender west to save the Settler later.

NF worker starts working the wheat.

NF has 4 content peasants, will expand in 5 turns, creating 1 unhappy one. It is building a settler but won't be finished for 8 turns. What to do? I decide I'll raise the Lux tax when the time comes.

(4)2390 BC:
Another Barb appears, heading for Salamanca. Our settler is in no danger.. yet..

Settler moves to second gold tile. One more move for city placement.

The mid-scout finds Chinas border.. Must be expanding north. Soon they will be at the northern land bridge.


(5)2350 BC:
West: Still south, following the shoreline. East: Still east, hasn't found shoreline yet, but he will overtake Indian and Egyptian warrior explorers soon.

(6)2310 BC:
GR completes its warrior, starts a worker. I'd like another worker to be able to link the new cities by road, and bring luxuries to Salamanca.

Allegheny founded just past gold hills. Starts Warrior.

I discuss buying the Wheel from India over a nice vegetarian curry. He wants 60 gold. Steep but ok, I want to see horses. I talk him down to 50. China wants all our gold plus 5gpt for horseback riding! No thanks..

(7)2270:
Barb impales itself on our warrior. Salamanca builds Spearman. Salamanca starts a temple. I'm thinking Sal is short on improvements..

I send a warrior out to hit the barb camp.. As much as I'm enjoying the training, the barb has to go before a Horse SoD appears.

Worker on the wheat completes its irrigation, starts Road.

GR has expanded. NF will expand next turn. Still has 4 turns to Settler. I raise the science rate, planning on leaving it at 2 until the settler in NF is built.

Scouts scout.

China already has Mysticism. We will get it in 1 turn. 50 gold for Masonry. Don't know why we need this. 60 for Alphabet. I take it..

(8)2230:
Mysticism completes, Iron Working starts. No horses on our territory btw..

only 1 horse, and its south of Russia.

(9)2190:
Argh.. the 20% luxury was not enough. NF riots after it expands. I hire an entertainer. So how would this be classified? Not weed, not carelessness. I didn't know that a bit more luxury spending wouldn't help the rioting...?

2 workers finish their project on the hill, move to a hill south of Sal.

(10)2150 BC:
NF back out of riot mode.

Wheat worker moves towards NF's Floodplain tile intended for irrigation.

Workers on Sal's hill start Mine. Worker on Sal Grassland moves to hill with gold, to build road to Allegheny.

Warrior moves north onto Mountain to prepare for new Barbs. Next intended move, one mountian closer to Barb settlement.

Scout in centre moves south to horse square on China border. Other scout west of china moves south. Scout#3 gets onto the hill by the ocean.


EDIT: OK.. :smoke: here.. Where is my 10th turn?? :rolleyes: :confused: :lol:

EDIT: I seem to have stopped too soon (and started with 2). Added 1 turn and described exactly what I did last turn. I didnt repost the save just for 1 turn. I think its pretty clear. I also renumbered the turns to start with 1.




http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/lotr3_SHADOW_Brian_2190BC.zip
 
I'm still in, sorry I have been busy. I will post my shadow turn for the next round. Arathorn, are you going to let us know when we all should start playing the turns after charliehoke or just dive in?
 
Originally posted by Architect
I'm still in, sorry I have been busy. I will post my shadow turn for the next round. Arathorn, are you going to let us know when we all should start playing the turns after charliehoke or just dive in?

Anybody there? :) Arathorn may be waiting until you post your shadow turn this round... :)
 
Actually, Arathorn was waiting for a free minute to get online and check things out. I've been *WAY* busy with RL stuff. I do have some comments and my turn to post. I should get all of that done sometime today, and then we can play on.

Sorry for the delay,
Arathorn
 
(0) 2550 - Egypt has BW, Masonry, Alphabet, and the Wheel. Russia has BW and Masonry. India matches Egypt. China has BW, Masonry, Alphabet, the Wheel, and Mysticism. So, our time to get most benefit out of Mysticism is already past. Check with China on cost. Mysticism costs 18 gold vs. 20 in research AND we get it faster to shop it. Trade made. Mao now polite. And now I shop Mysticism. Mysticism and 9 gold to Egypt for the Wheel. Mysticism to Ghandi for BW and 5 gold. Ghandi now polite. The Wheel to Russia for Masonry. Mysticism to Russia for 26 gold (not the highest price she's willing to pay (highest able, though), but it gets us a net positive gold for our trouble). I see NO horses anywhere.

Next tech to research... Polytheism -- back at 10% science for 40 turns. I doubt we'll get it this way, but running 0 science always worries me. Buying/selling/trading is usually the best route to go.

I see a way to steal one extra gold in Niagara Falls. The "current/passed state":
NF_preswitch.jpg


Note that there is three extra food but that only two is required to grow. We can try to get an extra shield, but that's lost to waste...
Bad_switch.jpg


We can, however, get one extra commerce by working the ocean -- for this turn only.
Ocean_switch.jpg


Now, is one gold, in and of itself, important? No. But the principle of this move can amount to MANY one/two gold opportunities over the course of a game -- enough to get several hundred gold, and that does make a difference.

Drunken worker on the mine will finish in 2 turns, which means it's probably too late to switch him off, would waste more than it would accomplish. I'll probably even have him build a road
(didn't realize there was one there already, at the time), while muttering under my breath.

I'm finally ready to go to the next turn and I hit enter.

(1) 2510 - It's faster for the center scout to go south and then west instead of west and then south -- I use the "goto" command to check this and then move the scout manually. South scout goes south one and sees a pleasant valley with Egyptians around. He waves and moves east onto a hill to try to see better. West scout stuck in the jungle goes south.

Put the NF worker back on the flood plain for growth in NF and off the ocean. Check that NF, after growth, is still happy. Sala can't afford to move a citizen off the forest to the grass, as I would've liked to increase growth. But I check the worker and the mine will finish in one turn. That means I can move the citizen and all will be well. I do it. (The mine will finish before the shields are counted, thereby giving us the one extra food I want while not costing us any turns of production.)

Attacking the barb on the mountain would just be stupid, so I don't. I just hope we win when he attacks us. At least we're on a hill.

Nothing good for trade.

(I) Salamanca completes its settler, as per orders, and begins a warrior -- I would like to escort the settler AND be able to go barb hunting before too long. Troops are getting important. We defeat the barb easily, but no promotion. Egypt founds a city in our sight, by some furs.

(2) 2470 - I wake a warrior in Salamanca and send him ahead of the settler. I'm aiming for the forest three west of Salamanca -- has some overlap with Sala, but has two bonus grass to start with and leaves room for a great "fishing" village in the NW by the incense. Also begins to cut off the road north. This is a very conservative location -- something further south is a bit bolder but probably acceptable on emperor. This location cuts off the north from non-water access.

Sala's worker heads south onto the mountain to start a road to GR. I'd rather keep him near Salamanca to develop it, but the prospect of a luxury is too sweet for me to pass up. Roading west in the grass SW of Salamanca is at least as good a choice. Desert worker notices a road already in place and hurries to the wheat north of NF.

Center scout S. S scout S, E. W scout S. It's important to keep fog-busting as much as possible, so that our map will hopefully buy us something, even if it's just another world map.

NF actually considers the mined desert, but the cut in growth rate is too severe. Its citizens stay on the flood plain. Sala on the 3/3/5 shield plan again.

(I) Chinese warrior clearing a way (fighting barbs) south for west scout. He'll bear watching.

(3) 2430 - S scout E to hopefully discover something different. Center scout SW to next land bridge. W scout S.

Worker on mountain roads and worker on wheat irrigates.

Warrior climbs mountain BEFORE the settler moves, as a precautionary move. Then, as the coast is clear, the settler follows.

Cities look good. Nothing for trade.

(I) NF hit by disease. Youch. That's gonna hurt. Why am I the only one to get disease in this game?

(4) 2390 - Warrior again procedes settler west.

Center scout blocked by Chinese warrior pair from his intended route. He goes S instead, undecided on east/west next. S scout also blocked and goes SE, SE to mountain for view. W scout S again, through an endless morasse of jungle -- but he notices coastal access west -- exploring this will be a priority later...now it's just a point of interest.

Sala will grow with any food supply, so citizen moved to a mined bonus grass, helps warrior faster. Hmmm...evaluate that warrior decision.... Barbs seem queit/quelled by others. I switch to a granary, ostensibly due in 11 but will appear much faster in reality. NF citizens obviously diseased and stupid. Put 'em to work on both wheats and the hilltop (second shield very nice).

Egypt, India, and China all have iron working. Russia doesn't and has NOTHING to trade to us. It would cost ~80 gold, but there's no pressing reason why it can't wait. Eventually, knowledge of the location of this resource will be important, but we have about three high-priority cities in the west -- for food and establishing a line -- that need founding first. I wait.

(I) More disease in NF.

(5) 2350 - Found Allegheny first thing. Start another warrior. Soon, one city will need to build a barracks and start creating "real" troops. Warrior already there fortifies.

Center scout decides east is less crowded and goes SE. S scout goes NE, E. W scout continues plod S.

Sala reclaims wheat from the non-bonus mined grass. NF works N wheat and hill. Usually, disease is a two-turn thing, so hopefully NF can start growing again.

Egypt and China have horseback riding. Ghandi is behind. We could probably afford it, but with no horses, it's rather a moot point. Still, for that price, we could probably sell it to Ghandi and get another tech out of the deal. Two-for-one price? I check. HR costs 57 gold from Egypt and only 55 from Mao. I buy from Mao and sell to Ghandi for Iron Working, kicking in 21 gold to complete the deal. 76 gold for two techs -- not necessarily the best deal but not horrible.

There is iron north of Salamanca and on one of the "worthless" mountains that will lie between Sala and GR. Sigh.

(I also note the "bad" GR location has one shield lost to waste and the "good" didn't. I'm this close to whipping a settler at size 3 and moving the darn city to where it belongs.)

(I) GR completes warrior and starts the temple it needs to get any more good squares. Growth in 10 over temple in 10, as growth will help get temple faster and is better in the long run.

(6) 2310 - GR warrior fortifies.

C scout SE SE. SE scout E, E. W scout SE along coast.

Russia got Iron Working somehow -- probably researched it themselves.

(7) 2270 - W scout SE into jungle as Egyptian cut-off nice straight S option. Miserable AI. C scout S and sees horses! And east onto a hill. Too bad those horses are between Egypt and Russia. We'd certainly like them. E scout goes E SE and sees ivory on the coast. Worker on wheat starts road.

Cities look good. Nothing new on diplo front.

(8) 2230 - W scout SW, S by Chinese city. C scout E, E south of Russia. E scout N NE and sees a goodie hut! Some reasonably nice plains down here, but we'll never get a chance to claim them peacefully.

Put the new NF citizen back on the floodplain where he belongs. He might go to the desert next turn, if it saves one whole turn on the settler, which I think it will. Diplo front boring.

(I) Barb warrior appears SE of our SE scout. He can run safely, though.

(9) 2190 - Pop the goodie hut first and see what it contains. Stupid maps! More iron down here. He then goes E to save area N of him for C scout. C scout E E. Iron near Russia. W scout S S. Not much there.

The hill mine finally completed!!! Those workers split -- one goes SE to flood plain and the other goes W SW to grass by Salamanca. I want both worked. It hurts short-term (because the two combined can finish one improvement faster) and might not help long-term (but it might because no turns are wasted), but I like seeing lots of developed squares and NO wasted worker turns.

I agree with the AI's choice of the forest by Salamanca. Granary in 4 and then growth in 5 -- that saves 8 food by being timed right. NF citizen moved from flood plain to plains, getting the settler one turn earlier but not hurting food as much as being on the desert would -- costs one science beaker (no use anyway) and one entertainment dollar (3 content citizens anyway). Definitely the right place. All else continues on track.

At some point, we'll need Alphabet as a pre-cursor to writing and mathematics. With 109 in the bank, we're starting to be a lightning rod for demands. I buy Alphabet from Ghandi for 46 gold -- about the cheapest price and he's in the worst shape (by score and power graphs). That gives us tech parity. Wow. I expected to see at least one tech beyond that for sale. Shrug.

Lux tax up to 20% for Salamanca's sake -- another MP there will be needed before too long.

(I) NF completes settler and begins another. Allegheny completes warrior and begins a temple -- get those incense in our borders.

(10) 2150 - New Allegheny worker headed for Salamanca. Grass warrior roads and floodplain worker irrigates. Settler crosses river west. Wheat worker SW to floodplain.

C scout NE NE to see how wide the sea S of "our" peninsula. E scout E to coast and done to stay out of barb range. W scout S S and into Chinese territory that I missed the border of. S coast seen there.

NF working wheat square like it should -- after any pop change/project completion, you should check. Growth is gonna be slow for a bit while we're still recovering from the disease. All else looks good.

Arathorn

Save at

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/lotr3-shadow-Arathorn-2150bc.zip

Edit: Not sure what happened to my 3rd picture. I hope you got the idea.

Evaluation: One of my better 10 turn sets. Allegheny in a very conservative location but still allows good cities around it. Excellent tech trading -- one of my rare fine moments in that arena. Why am I the only one to get hit by disease??? And every shadow turn? Sigh. My pop's way behind because of that. All-in-all, though, about as good a set of turns as I'm likely to demonstrate.
 
The science decision is tough. Noticing China had Mysticism and noting costs would have led to an earlier and more beneficial brokering.

It's rarely worth cancelling a worker order. In this case, he had two turns left, which means he had been working for three turns already. That's a lot of wasted worker turns, as the preliminary mining effort is completely lost. On the flip side, is it wasteful to continue mining a low-value square? A sunk cost, as it were? No verdict rendered.

At the very least, an evaluation of the passed situation was done and that's important. When playing solo, it's beneficial to occasionally pause, take stock, and (re)evaluate each decision before proceding.

Question: Does any research occur between build up beakers?

I do not understand the question and I doubt I know the answer anyway. What I'm starting to suspect is occurring is that during each city's operations, commerce is figured and if it generates a new tech, the new tech is chosen and beakers go to that. But I could EASILY be way mistaked with that -- barely a hypothesis and certainly not a theory yet.

Certainly, though, the CLOCK begins immediately. If doing the min sci gambit, you need to pick the correct tech immediately.

Mysticism paid off reasonably well -- $6 and Myst got two techs -- that's a very good start. Delaying until you did, though, meant India had already purchased it (or you didn't shop there -- if so, :smoke: but I'm guessing the former). It's a delicate game.

On hunting down a barb camp, ask yourself "Why?" Is it the 25 gold, the fear for your settlers, the fear of an uprising, or something else? Settling such that the barb camp is visible from a city will remove it, but without the 25 gold. Now, 25 gold is reasonably valuable and might be worth delaying the next city -- and it might not be. No calls of weed, just a call to think about all your actions and their full justification.

A tech for net $19? Always a good deal. We have the gold to spend. And Alphabet isn't one of the cheapest ones. Sure, another civ gets it, too, which is a bit of a bummer, but playing broker is always good. It will occasionally prevent a war against you and often improves relations. The relations is a bonus, though, the real power is in getting the tech.

On Emperor/Deity, you're almost always behind on tech. ToE/RR time, you CAN catch up and pass, if that's been your goal for a while. It's often safest to just play near the rear, though, buying cheap -- and maybe occasionally selling to those even worse than you -- as you did here.

2350 -- we don't NEED more culture somewhere -- it's just nice. IN this case, the extra squares GR gets will probably make the temple worthwhile -- plus it's cheap. As far as culture goes, though, we're probably ahead of the curve with our early temple in NF. Again, we can afford to play behind the curve on culture, so we often do.

2310 -- I hear you on the barracks. At some point, we're going to need/want veteran troops and upgrade ability and such. It's on the horizon, nearing soon, I hope -- in a city or two.

Now that you've decided to push the boundary for A, you really need to fill in behind as fast as possible. That probably means changing Sala over to settler now. Happiness can be taken care of other ways. Yeah, it's risky, but it's a natural outgrowth of pushing Allegheny as far as reasonable. Otherwise, A is running a great risk of being surrounded and then overrun. Minsk where it is is more of a call to fill in the middle fast than to really stretch out our necks.

2270 -- 24 gold for ~8 food -- that's almost exactly half a person. Now, is half a person worth 24 gold? Certainly, a whole person in the form of a worker (this early) is worth 24 gold (and more). That would mean 48 gold for one person. I don't think it's quite worth that. I would call this a justifiable use of that citizen -- made possible with the minimum science gambit. If NF were a low-food area that was getting starved for people, that'd alter the discussion, too. But since NF is shield-starved and food healthy, I think it's a good use.

2230 -- Once we're talking spearmen, we're talking units that might very well see combat -- and thus a barracks might be called for at this point. If you're thinking units (and you obviously are), I'm gonna argue against the regular spear. Barracks, granary, settler all make more sense than building a regular spear in Salamanca at this point. ONE regular sword to give the AI a new "best unit" to "fear" is possibly worthwhile, but the value of a regular spear is still pretty low.

2150 -- Wow! Saved up a lot for the end, huh? Trading when everybody has everything is kinda hard. Yeah, we need the things, but can they wait -- at this point? It's rather unilateral to do everything yourself at the very end of your succession turn.

$43 for the Wheel from India is probably worth it -- it gets us knowledge of where horses are (or aren't, in our case). Especially with our UU, that knowledge is important to determining the direction of our strategy. No horses means a bit (or a lot) of a readjustment to a game approach. But, why now? Why not two turns ago? Or in another turn?

HR for $51? When we don't have any horses anyway? Why??? :smoke:

Once you get HR, though, and see that Russia doesn't have it, you definitely need to get maximum value out of it, and pay for IW. This isn't necessarily compounding a mistake -- nor mitigating it. But, it's the best use of the situation you were in.

Summary:

Tech Trading: B+ -- up-to-date but spent a lot of gold doing it and Poly a bit late
City Management: C -- could've had settler in NF earlier by careful watching, spear in Sala not the best option, swamped with units
Allegheny Location: B -- fine if a bit gambity. In the correct position for a city by the gold hills
Scouting: B
Other: B+

Total: B/B+

Arathorn
 
I got your 2190 save, so I'm basing comments on that.

2510 -- why buy BW now? See my comments to others about tech trading. There is a time and a place to buy and to sell. You buy when (partial list only):

1. You can play broker and pass some of the cost on to another civ
2. You need the tech ASAP for a wonder/building/unit/city location decision
3. You have so much cash built up that you're ripe for extortion
4. A barb will sack a city and steal your gold anyway, so you might as well spend it

You sell when:
1. You're not the only provider of a tech -- use it or lost it opportunity
2. The deal is too good to pass up
3. You need the cash to use THIS turn
4. You're brokering to everyone
5. You have reason to believe someone else will discover it and shop it next turn
6. It's a wonder-only tech and you have that wonder locked up (even if not 100% complete)

This somewhat meets buy criteria 2, in that a spear is started your next turn, but I question that decision mightily.

2470 - Unescorted settler when barbs are KNOWN to be around? That's just ASKING for trouble -- pay the entertainment tax -- think of it as insurance. The cost is relatively low but losing a settler to a barb can be crippling. Send the bloody escort. And, heck, the lux tax is probably more necessary for NF than Sala anyway. Definitely :smoke:

2310 - Danger, Will Robinson, danger! China sees us as weak and as a potential very early enemy. When tech prices are that out-of-whack with what the other civs are offering, warning signals should flare! A few gold (at this level) or a few gpt for more expensive techs is just "noise" in their decision process. A difference of ~100 gold for such a cheap tech is a sure sign that something's dangerously amiss. This game could get very interesting very fast, as war with China is almost assured. I do hope you enjoyed the curry, though.

Sal on a temple now? We're still mid-land-grab. The temple there can DEFINITELY wait, so it should. Building a temple there now would slow us down a ton and is definitely a weedy idea. The spear is questionable but the temple is downright bad.

2270 - One warrior vs. a barb hut is pretty tentative -- the MASSIVE advantage vs. barbs on earlier levels is almost gone on Emperor and one warrior can easily die. You wouldn't escort the settler but you'll send out a lone warrior after a barb hut? Tut-tut. (Yes, I know the spear's taking over the MP duty, but it's still bad priorities.)

Raise the science rate to 20%??? Whatever for? Are we expecting to research something in that time? Research is usually best at either max speed (either losing gpt or not, depending on exact circumstances) or bare minimum (either 0 or bare minimum for one beaker, depending on circumstances again). 20% is just puffing away gold.

I can't believe China now has reasonable rates. Something is very ... odd about this. I'm not sure what to make of it. Did they find a better target? It's usually very hard to discourage an AI once it has decided you are in its way. Why buy Alphabet now???????

2190 - carelessness, definitely. Raising the lux tax is one thing. Then you look at the cities and see the line-ups of happy/content/unhappy and count. You KNEW NF was going to be problematic -- you have to check it exactly. Never assume 10% is going to make the difference you need. When you're one/two turns from a tech, do you just lower science 10% and assume all will be well? NO! You adjust and check, adjust and check -- the same thing applies for the luxury slider. At x%, you can see it's not enough, so you bump it again. If it's still not enough, it's time to seriously consider running a specialist.

Working the hill S of Sala? Why? It's a pretty low priority square -- it takes a long time for workers to develop it, is only 1/2/1 under despotism (which we can get from the forest much faster), and doesn't help with connectivity. Workers on the wacky stuff again, I see.

Summary:

Tech Trading: F -- three behind, doing weedy things, spending gold with minimal results, not shopping Mysticism (to Russia at least)
City Management: D -- spear in Sala pretty bad, NF disorder, temple in Sala bad choice
Allegheny Location: B -- solid position that allows for much expanding around it, doesn't waste squares, has good potential across many eras. Reasonably safe.
Scouting: B-
Other: C- -- wacky workers on weed need some westwictions

Total: D/D-

Arathorn
 
Raise the science rate to 20%??? Whatever for? Are we expecting to research something in that time? Research is usually best at either max speed (either losing gpt or not, depending on exact circumstances) or bare minimum (either 0 or bare minimum for one beaker, depending on circumstances again). 20% is just puffing away gold.

No no.. sorry, that was a typo. I raised the Luxury rate, not science. And apparently not enough at that..

I got knocked for not supplying an escort for the settler. Fair enough, I'm not compaining, but I mean, this is a game.. what fun is there without risks..:rolleyes:
 
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