Master of Mana Xtended 5.0

[Icezera]

And late game, adept spells will simply fizzle. Once you reach Combat 4, adept spells do absolutely 0 damage, especially if you have mages in your stack with a magic resist combat aura.

Seriously, play vanilla FFH and mods that keep the vanilla ffh style if you don't want magic to be useful.

The enemy ai is good at using mages too so it is not a one-sided thing. And farming barbs for EXP is a key part of all FFH games or you'll never get the high level units that need to be upgraded from lower level units at levels 10+

 

[esvath]

the summoner trait doesn't work the way it should. War bears cost 5 mana upkeep, how much do I pay with summoner ? 6!

I checked this and got different result than yours. In my experience, Summoner trait reduces the mana cost for summons but does not reduce the upkeep.

Anyone else can share their experience on this?

 

[Linvega]

I am asking the obvious here: did you have the necessary mana? Maybe the summon is postponed for a few turns to get enough mana?

That might have been the reason. I just retried it while not having enough mana, and just like before, the summon doesn't turn up - I thought you wouldn't be able to choose summoning in the first place if you don't have enough mana.

However, I still lose all the mana that is left AND the summon doesn't turn up the next turn. It definitely isn't just postponed until I saved up enough since in my current game I get more than 700 mana per turn. That doesn't seem to be what is intended.

I checked this and got different result than yours. In my experience, Summoner trait reduces the mana cost for summons but does not reduce the upkeep.

Anyone else can share their experience on this?

Again, I tried it now and this time, I even seem to be paying 7 mana for a war bear(Unit upkeep 26 before, now it's 33 after summoning a war bear). Are there other factors for upkeep I'm not considering here which might be the culprit?

In any case, in the civpedia it's written that upkeep is reduced, too.

Have anyone played heavy magic civ with 5.1? What do you think about the abundance of magic resistance?

Fire magic can occasionally be pretty weak now against certain enemies, but imo it's fine. All the other enemies still get roasted. It's a good thing if you can't literally burn through everything with just one thing. Even with a magic civ against enemies who have general magic resistance, you can compensate with Summons that have collateral dmg.

 

[Jojo_Fr]

Barbarian trait does not work. Barbarians immediately declare war at turn 2.

I play on classical era start.

 

[esvath]

Barbarian trait does not work. Barbarians immediately declare war at turn 2.

I play on classical era start.

What is your score? Barbarian player will declare war against you (even if you have Barbarian trait) if you are #1 in score and have +50% more score than the next player (or at least that's how I remember it).

Edit: eventhough the peace with Barbarian has broken, the penalties from Barbarian trait stays.

 

[Jojo_Fr]

Ok. My score ? I don't know. I just settled at turn 1, on classical era start. I think it's the classical start which is the problem.

 

[esvath]

Ok. My score ? I don't know. I just settled at turn 1, on classical era start. I think it's the classical start which is the problem.

It might be. I'll add a condition in the code to prevent declaration of war by Barbarian for non-Ancient start until turn 50.

 

[Jojo_Fr]

That's great. Thx.

 

[Psychodad]

old Problem:

when defending against Barbarians my units often get killed although the should have 100% chance to win. Im not sure if that happens against AI too or just vs Barbarians. I think that was an issue even in vanilla MoM.

 

[Cor'e =)]

On latest v5.0 + Win7 Pro x64. Keep having a game crash when: 1) i try to Load a last turn from within game (i can load it after CTD), and 2) later in game it will crash at end of turns. I'm including a few of the savegames, and will be loading up v5.1 MoM anyhow, but please make sure whatever is crashing my current game is not a bug in still in v5.1, thank you for a really fun wonder mod! =)

Update: still happens in v5.1, See AD202 savefile attached. =(

 

[Calavente]

further thoughts on Class and Disciplines.

I continued to play my svart game;
Honestly, I have quite good melee units (defender : 12str !!!, versus 9str ranger). But I still prefer to build that Ranger. (and now satyrs) (or even assassin)
Ranger, at 9, can get, with ambush discipline : 2 str + heal during combat with Aeron Chosen, +2 poison str (poison tech), +poison bomb (reached at level 8): a mage-like unit that damages units, and leaves a "poisoned" debuff, without any mana cost, that moves 2/turn (like Hippus mage) and can attack living units with... 13 str!! (from base), and non-living with 11str, (not so far from the defender)
Assassin, same tech cost than Defender (but needs a guild) has 6str +4poison ... + the same 4str above.: 14str against living + target weakest unit + is hidden nationality !!!

in the same way that ranger or assassin can instead take poison master class : poison damage aura : "a free-tempest every turn" : +5-18 damage/turn to 4-8 ennemies around!!! and with poison promotion (+2str) and +2promotions (specialized poison master sub promotions) : +3str : so +5str against living units : that ranger is then at 14str against living, 2mvt, + damaging aura : how can my defender compete with that ?

take another discipline : the "skirmish ?" : take blood-blade : amuse yourself with 3-5 kills... et voila!! +60% str., Melee might maybe compensate in str with assault discipline (+20%) and champion class (+20%str + chance of battlestance +10%) ... but the dagger discipline gives.. +1mvt, +10%escape : my Ranger, 9str, moves with 3 moves... (the defender cannot reach the battle-field in time...)

Re - Aeron chosen : knights can also get +2str... but they don"t get the heal during combat... and they don't get access to further increases of str.
when attacking cities, my Nyxins has much less combat chance than my Aeron Chosen+poison Ranger (or even than my 7str hunters!!)

and melee/disciples never come in range quick enough.

IMO mobility 1 should come earlier (at least for melee/ disciples).

Melee units should be stronger in base str (8str instead of 7...Etc)
Battle stance promotion could give +2str (but as it's battle stance you don't get it each turn)
berserker class could give a +40%attack -20%defense heal during combat.
One of the class of the Assault discipline could give +1mvt, +10%attack, -10%defense
Defender discipline should get increased xp on defense + increased chance to defend the stack (if it is not already the case).
You told that you would remove the "vengeance discipline for melee ": why ?? what about that only useful class of vengeance discipline (save bard): the one with the flag: that str aura is important.

Magic knight : on Flying... flying should give 2-3mvt and not 1 : currently a magic knight, 4 moves, moves less (in your territory) than a normal unit ! (6 moves with roads... 9 with engineering !!), and barely more than a skirmisher unit on other terrain: 4mvt (especially for civs with wood/hill/desert double movement)
even more : IMO flying (and magic knight) could give : forbids heavy armor, +2FS, -10%vs archers, +3 mvt +10%withdrawal)

Re Beast-Lord:
-it was not useful at all !
- no beast/animal unit got any increased aura from it. (it is written "str animal units under its command"... but there is no proposal for getting units under it's command :/)
- 30%chance to capture beast is really low : 70 would be better.
- animal/beasts take "upkeep" and don't get equipement nor access to the +2str from tech, nor access to class: I'm not sure that a beast army is really useful
(only beast useful is the Dinosaur one : 32 str is usable, but even 15str spider is not useful anymore as a combat unit in the mid game)

I might have other ideas ... but i'll need to think about "why do I never use this or that class, and what would make me use it at least a bit".

 

[esvath]

I continued to play my svart game;

Svart is one of few civs focusing on recon (the other are Sidar and Austrin). This does not negate your experience. It highlight the benefits of Svart instead. They have access to varied types of recon units (through their roster), stronger (through Sinister promotion). They can afford to employ many recon units since their favourite improvement is Camp and they starts at Tundra. So I'd say, you play excellent game with the Svart, playing to their strength.

For future game, if you are interested, play Elohim. It would be harder to play all-recon team with them; or at least, you'll have incentives to rely on Disciple units instead. If you do so, I'd be interested in hearing your thought on Disciple classes.

 

[Calavente]

I agree that for playing recon as svart is playing their strength .

however the ranger and the satyr are not svart only.
To just limit what you say : currently, in my Svart game I didn't unlock ANY svart recon unit.
hunteress is given from start
Ranger is hunter-guild and not svart only
assassins were given through an event
Fawn./Satyr are FoL and not svart.
the only svart unit I unlocked is the Melee unit... to see if it can be used (because the forum advocated that melee were normally more powerful). I built 3.. .and can't use them for combat as they are too slow. too slow to get to xp-farming ground; too slow to get to combat ground.
So the only advantages my svart have over other civs playing recon is... the sinister trait. Which is good IMO, but it doesnt negate all the other strengths of a double movement mage that can attack as strong as a melee and can get +4/5 more str than units of similar tier, and does spell damage without using mana.

in my last hippus game (or the previous Illian) I mostly played recon for the same reason as for Svart: recon have 2 mvt and are stronger than mounted in everything.
for Hippus, I had a few mounted units, but not a lot... until I got the tierIV mounted units (because they had blitz and there was no nerf yet on xp), and the windsword (which has 2mvt).
For Elohim I played a game 1 year ago or so.
the Difference with elohim is MONK, and SPIRITUAL.
Indeed, with disciple start with 2mvt, its a good incentive to play with it. (and if melee had 2mvt it would be the same).
further MONKS have interesting promotions that might be balanced with recon... but I'm not even sure.
further for Elohim, the crux is that.... Devout suck a bit as a recon unit as it has str of an assassin... but cannot assassinate from start.
So with Elohim it"s harder to play with recon.
And in that game I tried the Healer circle, so I forgoed the hunting guild... and couldn't get the sweet sweet Ranger.

For me, the conclusion here is that "for civs that have bad recon-rosters and don't profit enough from FoL" recon is bad.
well, that's normal, that's due to the composition of the roster, not due to the str or weakness of the class/disciplines.
it's normal that civs that only have a 7str recon units will use more their 10str/12 str melee / mounted/archer.
but for equivalent starting str, IMO recon are better.


For disciples units I like to get the one that give +2Holy, +holy weakness... so that other disciple of the same stack can profit of the holy-weakness.
I also liked the +1mvt, +attack multiple times/turn, but only for high tier units, when my +2str from tech is important, and that was before you nerfed blitz.
I think the martial art promotion is nice and fun, (stun+20% against stunned units) but could really be improved by +1FS as for the first unit, it doesnt do much... or if the stack is huge, you never get to capitalize on the stunned status.
I discoverd the Healer class (the one that gives second chance...) it is nice.
I played too with the FoL auras... but they are hard to get: need much xp, without boosting the priest himself. (and I only found eagle and snake useful. Bear's movement cost is too great, and cheetas has too limited terrain : +1 mvt would be more useful (like a haste-aura) IMO)
the command are useful... but I rarely have the priest at high enough str and str% to really be able to use the command units.

well. Promised, I'll play elohim or malakim in my next game, when you'll release your changes