[UNIT] Mighty Ships Et Al

All I could really find for Sub-Saharan Africa were some canoes, Mtepe, and that's it. I think Civ III had someone who made a what-if African ship, looked pretty interesting. I'll try to think of something when I can.

Also good job on the Egyptian Galleys Toad. :)
 
There's Somali with Beden: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beden
Spoiler A larger sea-going version :

july2010-sailingwith9thcenturyjewel-02.jpg

It is rather unique, at least in construction (its planks are sewn together), though I feel the shape is very influenced by Arab dhows. All in all, at least in Eastern Subsaharan Africa, from a rather early stage the shipbuilding was very much influenced by Arabs, and before that likely Indians too. For Western Subsaharan Africa I feel one has to build from larger canoes. After all, that's how indigenous shipbuilding evolution went in Southeast Asia, so it is entirely plausible for Africa too, given more time free from external influence.

Spoiler A modern canoe :
4-Mud-Mosques-sidebar-image.jpg

Igbo (quite like Maori elsewhere) would later on gladly use gunpowder weaponry (muskets and swivel cannons) from their war canoes, showing how persistent the general canoe concept was.

Spoiler On the forefront, the watercraft depicted are Stanley's expedition, but their opponents in the background have guns as well :
stanley2-8.jpg

A lot of first-hand depictions of Central African shipbuilding can generally be found in Stanley's expedition drawings: https://library.princeton.edu/visual_materials/maps/websites/africa/stanley/stanley-images.html
 
Last edited:
I create dornier do-17
Looks good. :thumbsup: Although, there is a minor problem. The plane doesn't show up in the bottom left of the interface. I swapped the vanilla bombers material into your unit, and also renamed the Trishape to "Editable Mesh@#1" from the previous "Cube". That fixed it.
Also made a button.
do17-jpg.592697
 

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There's Somali with Beden: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beden
Spoiler A larger sea-going version :

july2010-sailingwith9thcenturyjewel-02.jpg

It is rather unique, at least in construction (its planks are sewn together), though I feel the shape is very influenced by Arab dhows. All in all, at least in Eastern Subsaharan Africa, from a rather early stage the shipbuilding was very much influenced by Arabs, and before that likely Indians too. For Western Subsaharan Africa I feel one has to build from larger canoes. After all, that's how indigenous shipbuilding evolution went in Southeast Asia, so it is entirely plausible for Africa too, given more time free from external influence.

Spoiler A modern canoe :
4-Mud-Mosques-sidebar-image.jpg

Igbo (quite like Maori elsewhere) would later on gladly use gunpowder weaponry (muskets and swivel cannons) from their war canoes, showing how persistent the general canoe concept was.

Spoiler On the forefront, the watercraft depicted are Stanley's expedition, but their opponents in the background have guns as well :
stanley2-8.jpg

A lot of first-hand depictions of Central African shipbuilding can generally be found in Stanley's expedition drawings: https://library.princeton.edu/visual_materials/maps/websites/africa/stanley/stanley-images.html

Thankyou for this Walter. There was the image of the really nice looking sailing canoes I posted I could probably make. I don't know what Toad is planning, but I can make the African sailing canoes and early galley pretty easily via reskinning I think.

Looks good. :thumbsup: Although, there is a minor problem. The plane doesn't show up in the bottom left of the interface. I swapped the vanilla bombers material into your unit, and also renamed the Trishape to "Editable Mesh@#1" from the previous "Cube". That fixed it.
Also made a button.
do17-jpg.592697

Thankyou for doing that for him Toad, and taking the time to make a button. I really like the fact you go that little extra mile with the buttons, and I must say they are awesome.
 
Thankyou for this Walter. There was the image of the really nice looking sailing canoes I posted I could probably make. I don't know what Toad is planning, but I can make the African sailing canoes and early galley pretty easily via reskinning I think.

I actually remembered that EU3 African buildings I converted a while (7 years OMG) ago have something that could serve as an excellent starting point: https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/eu3-building-pack-3-africa.23044/
 
Thankyou for this Walter. There was the image of the really nice looking sailing canoes I posted I could probably make. I don't know what Toad is planning, but I can make the African sailing canoes and early galley pretty easily via reskinning I think.



Thankyou for doing that for him Toad, and taking the time to make a button. I really like the fact you go that little extra mile with the buttons, and I must say they are awesome.

That button took like 30 seconds to make. I usually just take a screenshot. Then copy and paste over the ocean or grassland vanilla button.

Im currently working on Colchis/Kartli units. The archer today. Spearman yesterday. Swordsman before that.
I will probably do gunpowder units after mounted unit(s?).
 
I did have a look at AoM units at a certain point, but they are far too lowpoly for Civ 4 use. Unlike most other games we can convert from, these are not detailed enough
Than maybe you know of some models that would make good Myrmidon and Hersir models? They don't need to be an exact remake, just recognizable.
 
That button took like 30 seconds to make. I usually just take a screenshot. Then copy and paste over the ocean or grassland vanilla button.

Im currently working on Colchis/Kartli units. The archer today. Spearman yesterday. Swordsman before that.
I will probably do gunpowder units after mounted unit(s?).

Colchis was the ancient kingdom that was a predecessor to Georgia, one of the Caucasus powers. Interesting choice. I spent some time studying that area so I could have a good representation of interesting civilizations from that region.
 
I read the wiki on the Colchis. My analogy is comparing them the Virginia, and West Virginia. The Colchis being the more wealthy, and the Kartlis being the backwoods.
Based on Tantans refrences the main differences Ive made is giving the Colchis the boot helmet, and Kartlis the regular Saxon-ish helmet. Otherwise from what I can tell the cultures are interchangable. :dunno:

I don't know what to call gunpowder units, though. Georgian?
 
Virginia, and West Virginia.
Haha, love the analogy. Most of the images I found came wrapped in Georgian script, so I'm leaning pretty heavily on Khevsur's interpretations.

Thanks SoG for the quick breakdown. Yeah, by gunpowder era, I think you could classify the units as Georgian. (The fur leather hair presents some continuity.)

Walter Hawkwood might have some good ideas / references as to how this region transitions?

A buddy passed this info on to me: Apparently a band of Khevsureti warriors turned up in Moscow to aid the Czar, equipped like this... in 1914! Medieval warfare in World War One!

Khevsureti arrived in Moscow to aid the Czar 1914.jpg
 
The Caucasus is actually extremely diverse when it comes to different cultures. It is a linguist's nightmare/holy grail, with seemingly more diversity than European continent (note that the map is actually simplified, and often shows language families rather than actual languages - for instance, in our region of interest, the monolithic Georgian is actually a regional-specific mix of titular Georgian, Megrelian, Svan and Laz):
Spoiler language map :

1200px-Caucasus-ethnic_en.svg.png


What you're discussing now is dark yellow part, mostly located in modern Georgia. Due to the nature of the region, outside of genocides by external powers, the ethnic composition of the Caucasus was fairly conservative across the ages, as common for mountainous regions all over the globe. As such, we might talk of "Georgians" in that part with a fair amount of certainty dating back roughly to 5th century, and in the loose sense of "peoples speaking a Kartvelian-family language" the continuity is there back to the first attested states. OTOH, there was little political continuity, with the region being usually divided into several entities, often dependent on larger surrounding powers. The usual major powers in the Georgian region throughout history were Rome/Eastern Rome, Arabs, Persians, Turks and Russians. What does that give us in practice?

Ancient/Classical: Unlike the Armenian part of the region, which has attested Bronze-age statehood, the first known states appear around VIII BC, and are Colchis (known to Romans as Lazica) and Kartli (confusingly Iberia to Romans). Two fairly stable polities that were for sizeable chunks of their history Roman and Persian dependencies respectively. Both were Christianized (in IV and VI AD respectively), both later fell to Arab conquest, though retained their identity and mostly their religion. After a brief direct rule by Arabs, we proceed to...
Medieval: Abkhazia (somewhat confusingly, since modern Abkhazia, while nominally territory of Georgia, is a non-Georgian speaking de-facto independent state) and Iberia again (called Bagratid Iberia to distinguish it from the earlier one), then united into kingdom of Georgia, which is the furthest extent of Georgian statehood and the only pre-modern case of all Georgian peoples being unified under one political entity (also incorporating large bits inhabited by other Caucasian peoples at its highest extent around XII century). That lasted for roughly 400 years, with a 100-year pause for Mongols. Post-Mongol Georgia, reconstituted at almost original extent for a short while, was quickly picked at by encroaching emerging powers (Ottomans and Persians mostly) and disintegrated into three parts from within (Samtskhe, Imereti and Kakheti as three major parts, along with minor principalities), constantly at each others' throats. Which brings us to...
Renaissance: where independent political Georgian entities cease to exist, and the region becomes a two-way tug of war between Ottomans and Persians, later joined by the third player, Russia. Until XX century, there are no politically independent Georgian states, but rather Ottoman, Persian and Russian vassals, with various powers having the upper hand at various times. Eventually, Russia won most of the region, and by XIX century, Georgian nobility is a part of the Russian court (one of the major Russian commanders in the Napoleonic wars, prince Bagration, is, for instance, a member of the Georgian royal house; while I can't immediately find the data to back it up, IIRC ethnic Georgians were the third most prominent component of Russian imperial nobility after ethnic Russians and Poles).
Industrial: here we have a rather brief Georgian independence post-WW1, which lasted a couple of years, after which it becomes the Georgian SSR within the USSR.
Modern: modern Georgia begins in 1991 with the fall of the union, and generally at this point covers all of Georgian-speaking territory with an Armenian-majority region in the south as well, disputed between the two states (currently in a cold albeit civil manner, but featuring a Georgian-Armenian war in their first period of independence post-WW1).

As such, the hardest part to source - as with most of Caucasus - is the post-medieval era, where no independent policies are available. The rough lineup of reference pics for units, Ancient/Classical excluded since you already have those:

Medieval Georgia:
Spoiler A ton of reference pics :

scale_1200


imperial1589013835_1_1.jpg


imperial1589013870_2.jpg


imperial1589013938_4_1.jpg


imperial1589014051_8_1.jpg


imperial1589014078_9_1.jpg


imperial1589014104_10_1.jpg


imperial1589014135_11_1.jpg


imperial1589014321_14_1.jpg


imperial1589014349_15.jpg


imperial1589014377_16_1.jpg


imperial1589014404_17_1.jpg


imperial1589014436_18.jpg


imperial1589014476_20_1.jpg




imperial1589014550_24.jpg


imperial1589014579_25.jpg


imperial1589014611_26.jpg


imperial1589014639_3_1.jpg




As one can easily see, the heavier troops are mostly Byzantine-inspired, while lighter ones have a distinct local flavour.

Renaissance:

Spoiler Another ton of reference pics :
pgeP9QJvao6_pwEp6sypH9PX5mhwyvNdNIZsKAnNWIxt9IRTESmxlfitK11YiMVv5mSCVA6Dl53tAld5eLenK_bFaQ

x_bea4ecc5.jpg

voini-gruzini.jpg


41a58711bb02d35efcf05af32dd17c5b.jpg

two-gurian-men-georgia-DRAHN1.jpg

1f894610e31b9f5cbd7a04848fa43d2f.jpg

79c71e0b06d94d833694ecda7673b5ac.jpg

eb18825a22af.jpg

6a7a738731d421e57f74fa5caa68bf87.jpg


Generally speaking, one has to remember what I wrote above regarding the lack of independent Georgian polities throughout the period - this means that those are not standing armies, but rather essentially militias. As such, prominent elements of national costumes (of various Georgian sub-ethnicities) and clearly archaic elements are very prominent.

Industrial:
Spoiler a couple of pics :

6b474b557a55.png

0_18c646_8136403e_orig.png

Due to its short-lived nature, the Georgian republic's army mostly used surplus Russian WW1 uniforms (lower pic), but the upper pic (Osprey IIRC) shows what is an attempt to mould a national uniform out of Russian parts.

Georgian Legion was formed by Nazis in WW2, but IIRC wasn't trusted enough for frontline duties, so was shipped off to France, and apart from shoulder badges they would be using German uniforms anyway. The Soviet army never had any ethnic parts, so there are no examples of Georgian-specific Soviet troops to be had.
 
The Caucasus is actually extremely diverse when it comes to different cultures. It is a linguist's nightmare/holy grail, with seemingly more diversity than European continent (note that the map is actually simplified, and often shows language families rather than actual languages - for instance, in our region of interest, the monolithic Georgian is actually a regional-specific mix of titular Georgian, Megrelian, Svan and Laz):
Spoiler language map :

1200px-Caucasus-ethnic_en.svg.png


What you're discussing now is dark yellow part, mostly located in modern Georgia. Due to the nature of the region, outside of genocides by external powers, the ethnic composition of the Caucasus was fairly conservative across the ages, as common for mountainous regions all over the globe. As such, we might talk of "Georgians" in that part with a fair amount of certainty dating back roughly to 5th century, and in the loose sense of "peoples speaking a Kartvelian-family language" the continuity is there back to the first attested states. OTOH, there was little political continuity, with the region being usually divided into several entities, often dependent on larger surrounding powers. The usual major powers in the Georgian region throughout history were Rome/Eastern Rome, Arabs, Persians, Turks and Russians. What does that give us in practice?

Ancient/Classical: Unlike the Armenian part of the region, which has attested Bronze-age statehood, the first known states appear around VIII BC, and are Colchis (known to Romans as Lazica) and Kartli (confusingly Iberia to Romans). Two fairly stable polities that were for sizeable chunks of their history Roman and Persian dependencies respectively. Both were Christianized (in IV and VI AD respectively), both later fell to Arab conquest, though retained their identity and mostly their religion. After a brief direct rule by Arabs, we proceed to...
Medieval: Abkhazia (somewhat confusingly, since modern Abkhazia, while nominally territory of Georgia, is a non-Georgian speaking de-facto independent state) and Iberia again (called Bagratid Iberia to distinguish it from the earlier one), then united into kingdom of Georgia, which is the furthest extent of Georgian statehood and the only pre-modern case of all Georgian peoples being unified under one political entity (also incorporating large bits inhabited by other Caucasian peoples at its highest extent around XII century). That lasted for roughly 400 years, with a 100-year pause for Mongols. Post-Mongol Georgia, reconstituted at almost original extent for a short while, was quickly picked at by encroaching emerging powers (Ottomans and Persians mostly) and disintegrated into three parts from within (Samtskhe, Imereti and Kakheti as three major parts, along with minor principalities), constantly at each others' throats. Which brings us to...
Renaissance: where independent political Georgian entities cease to exist, and the region becomes a two-way tug of war between Ottomans and Persians, later joined by the third player, Russia. Until XX century, there are no politically independent Georgian states, but rather Ottoman, Persian and Russian vassals, with various powers having the upper hand at various times. Eventually, Russia won most of the region, and by XIX century, Georgian nobility is a part of the Russian court (one of the major Russian commanders in the Napoleonic wars, prince Bagration, is, for instance, a member of the Georgian royal house; while I can't immediately find the data to back it up, IIRC ethnic Georgians were the third most prominent component of Russian imperial nobility after ethnic Russians and Poles).
Industrial: here we have a rather brief Georgian independence post-WW1, which lasted a couple of years, after which it becomes the Georgian SSR within the USSR.
Modern: modern Georgia begins in 1991 with the fall of the union, and generally at this point covers all of Georgian-speaking territory with an Armenian-majority region in the south as well, disputed between the two states (currently in a cold albeit civil manner, but featuring a Georgian-Armenian war in their first period of independence post-WW1).

As such, the hardest part to source - as with most of Caucasus - is the post-medieval era, where no independent policies are available. The rough lineup of reference pics for units, Ancient/Classical excluded since you already have those:

Medieval Georgia:
Spoiler A ton of reference pics :

scale_1200


imperial1589013835_1_1.jpg


imperial1589013870_2.jpg


imperial1589013938_4_1.jpg


imperial1589014051_8_1.jpg


imperial1589014078_9_1.jpg


imperial1589014104_10_1.jpg


imperial1589014135_11_1.jpg


imperial1589014321_14_1.jpg


imperial1589014349_15.jpg


imperial1589014377_16_1.jpg


imperial1589014404_17_1.jpg


imperial1589014436_18.jpg


imperial1589014476_20_1.jpg




imperial1589014550_24.jpg


imperial1589014579_25.jpg


imperial1589014611_26.jpg


imperial1589014639_3_1.jpg




As one can easily see, the heavier troops are mostly Byzantine-inspired, while lighter ones have a distinct local flavour.

Renaissance:

Spoiler Another ton of reference pics :
pgeP9QJvao6_pwEp6sypH9PX5mhwyvNdNIZsKAnNWIxt9IRTESmxlfitK11YiMVv5mSCVA6Dl53tAld5eLenK_bFaQ

x_bea4ecc5.jpg

voini-gruzini.jpg


41a58711bb02d35efcf05af32dd17c5b.jpg

two-gurian-men-georgia-DRAHN1.jpg

1f894610e31b9f5cbd7a04848fa43d2f.jpg

79c71e0b06d94d833694ecda7673b5ac.jpg

eb18825a22af.jpg

6a7a738731d421e57f74fa5caa68bf87.jpg


Generally speaking, one has to remember what I wrote above regarding the lack of independent Georgian polities throughout the period - this means that those are not standing armies, but rather essentially militias. As such, prominent elements of national costumes (of various Georgian sub-ethnicities) and clearly archaic elements are very prominent.

Industrial:
Spoiler a couple of pics :

6b474b557a55.png

0_18c646_8136403e_orig.png

Due to its short-lived nature, the Georgian republic's army mostly used surplus Russian WW1 uniforms (lower pic), but the upper pic (Osprey IIRC) shows what is an attempt to mould a national uniform out of Russian parts.

Georgian Legion was formed by Nazis in WW2, but IIRC wasn't trusted enough for frontline duties, so was shipped off to France, and apart from shoulder badges they would be using German uniforms anyway. The Soviet army never had any ethnic parts, so there are no examples of Georgian-specific Soviet troops to be had.

Wow thankyou for this informative post! When I was choosing what graphics to use for the Georgia civ in my own mod I focused on Colchis for ancient times, and what i could find of Georgian medieval troops. After that I choose Russian looking units. The region is a crossroads, like Syria. Syria had local powers until it was dominated by the Persians I believe(Yamkhad, Mari), apart from Palmyra which almost became its own thing, Syria was always part of someone else's empire.
 
Yeah great stuff! Plus I love a good map - best bit, in all the linguistic patchwork of a refugium, a bit marked "other" - Klingon? Polari? Jive?
 
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