Military Talk

[Dachs]

Erroneous on all counts.

Especially in terms of naval warfare, WWII is way more interesting.

A litany of "dive bombers from American Carrier USS _____ sink Japanese IJN Vessels _____, __________, _____, and _______" isn't particularly interesting, chief.

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

Erroneous on all counts.

Especially in terms of naval warfare, WWII is way more interesting.

Kinda, and nope in that order. If you want to learn about WWII, turn on the history channels. And the in regards to the naval war, the most interesting stuff is never talked about. For every overdose of the Hood and Bismarck and Battle of Midway, there are underdoses of american and italian submarine warfare in the Pacific and Indian/Atlantic oceans (respectively) and sea war in the Mediterranean.

 

[Ajidica]

If you want your brain to die, turn on the history channels.

Fixed for you.

I agree with Dachs, WWI is more interesting, if only because it lacks Nazis and hasn't been done to death by idiots that would be stymied using their buy-a-degree as toilet paper.
(I personaly find the Napoleonic/French Revolutionary Wars, English Civil War, and 30 Years War more interesting, but that is me.)

 

[emzie]

Okay, I have assumed this nation has a coast. The exact numbers aren't exactly meaningful, they're just a rough indication of what I personally think is reasonable given the expected budgets and deployments.

Naval Forces:

1 Landing Helicopter Dock (to support peacekeeping operations, NATO operations or for disaster relief if they have overseas territory)
6 Medium sized escort warships capable of either ASW or AAW roles, changeable at will to provide a dynamic fleet
8 Corvette sized patrol ships to focus on low end duties such as anti-piracy
4 Diesel Submarines for various roles
10 Minesweepers
4 Replenishment ships
Number of Maritime Patrol Aircraft depending on size of coast

Air Forces

80 multirole jet aircraft, capable of both ground and air attack
10 tactical transport aircraft
50 transport and utility helicopters
3 AWACS platforms
40 Attack helicopters
5 Strategic transport aircraft
100 Light weight UAV's
70 Medium weight UCAVs

Ground Forces

30,000 personnel structured as a division sized force split into multiple brigades: perhaps two mechanised brigades, one marine brigade (part of naval forces, I know) and one airborne brigade.
120 MBT's
80 Artillery pieces
900 IFV's
600 AFV's
Numerous support platforms such as trucks, recce platforms, infantry mobility vehicles etc.

Instead of each nation focusing on having an independent armed forces attempting to do everything, I think different smaller European nations in NATO should be specializing in different areas, in a cooperative way with one another.

 

[Canabrava]

Brazil update.

Brazilian carrier are just for training. Now A-4 are under upgrade, with Elta 2032 radar and some Air-to-Surface missle.

There are some good subs. Now a new sub facotry is under construction and 4 scorpenes sub will be build with option to more 10. Also will build a 1 nuclear sub with option to more 3. All nuclar tech are completed just need a nuclear submarine designe.

18 FREMM, 10 Comandante Class and 1 LSV Etna Class are under negotiation with Italia (US$ 12,7 billion).

Also will buy 2 Mistral from France.

Airfore prabably will buy 32 Rafales with option for more 88 and more 48 to Navy.

Brazilian Navy is waiting for Airforce to buy a new carrier, but carrier demands are done. This ship should have 50-60 ton and carry 48 F-18/Rafale/F-35. Probably will be the same new france carrier to replace Charles de Gaulle.

Actually, just EUA and France can invade Brazil. UK can't, they just invades when get elizabeth carrier class with F-35.

 

[dIZZyBlIZZy]

I also find the first World War more interesting than the second.l But in general, I'm more about specific battle, especially Marathon and Kadesh.

Although an uprising and not specifically a military battle, the Yellow Turban Rebellion is interesting (when you find actual history on it and not something Koei just threw out there to make another dynasty warriors).

 

[Dachs]

Tactics aren't that interesting, but operations are

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

Fixed for you.

Thanks lol, I was originally going to say Hitler Channel, but was typing so fast I forgot.

 

[Ajidica]

Its H&A Channel, Hitler & Aliens.

 

[Theige]

A litany of "dive bombers from American Carrier USS _____ sink Japanese IJN Vessels _____, __________, _____, and _______" isn't particularly interesting, chief.

I dunno man, 1942 is pretty compelling, with the USN being severely bloodied on several occasions.

 

[Glassfan]

- but I agree that MBTs are fast becoming almost completely obsolete. They essentially exist to kill other tanks, and Apaches now do that far better as well as having numerous other advantages.

Respectfully disagree. They've been saying tanks are obsolete since the 1970's, But new MBT's like the Abrams and Challengers have proven them wrong. Tanks provide the main assault element of an offensive, in combination with attack helos, infantry combat vehicles and close air support.

Apaches are great, but they have limited loiter and are extremely vulnerable to groundfire. Tanks stay. And tanks can kill anything on the battlefield, not just other tanks. You certainly must remember 73 Eastings where a troop of Abrams annihilated an entire Iraqi Regiment. In the same campaign, Challengers set records for long distance kills.

 

[Winner]

The military of small nations cant become solely "niche" units for a couple of reasons. I would be really hard for any nation to completely place their fate in the hands of their neighbors for obvious reasons.

I'll reply to the rest later, but let me just explain the Czech defence strategy:

1) let the enemy fight his way through Poland, Germany, Slovakia, Austria, and before that through much of Europe.
2) if he succeeds, we're screwed anyway
3) surrender

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Okay, I have assumed this nation has a coast. The exact numbers aren't exactly meaningful, they're just a rough indication of what I personally think is reasonable given the expected budgets and deployments.

Naval Forces:

1 Landing Helicopter Dock (to support peacekeeping operations, NATO operations or for disaster relief if they have overseas territory)
6 Medium sized escort warships capable of either ASW or AAW roles, changeable at will to provide a dynamic fleet
8 Corvette sized patrol ships to focus on low end duties such as anti-piracy
4 Diesel Submarines for various roles
10 Minesweepers
4 Replenishment ships
Number of Maritime Patrol Aircraft depending on size of coast

Air Forces

80 multirole jet aircraft, capable of both ground and air attack
10 tactical transport aircraft
50 transport and utility helicopters
3 AWACS platforms
40 Attack helicopters
5 Strategic transport aircraft
100 Light weight UAV's
70 Medium weight UCAVs

Ground Forces

30,000 personnel structured as a division sized force split into multiple brigades: perhaps two mechanised brigades, one marine brigade (part of naval forces, I know) and one airborne brigade.
120 MBT's
80 Artillery pieces
900 IFV's
600 AFV's
Numerous support platforms such as trucks, recce platforms, infantry mobility vehicles etc.

That is about half the Spanish armed forces (40-50 million nation) with an important exception i always found worrying: Spain has not AWACs at all nor intentions of acquiring any AFAIK.

 

[imperialman]

Brazil update.

Brazilian carrier are just for training. Now A-4 are under upgrade, with Elta 2032 radar and some Air-to-Surface missle.

Do you have any source for that? Because the A-4's design is largely obsolete and you are planning to purchase new fighters, why new missiles? Plus, I'm pretty sure only 12 will have their avionics upgraded.

There are some good subs. Now a new sub facotry is under construction and 4 scorpenes sub will be build with option to more 10. Also will build a 1 nuclear sub with option to more 3. All nuclar tech are completed just need a nuclear submarine designe.

Much of your submarine fleet were designed in the 70's under a relatively small budget (they are of the Type 209 class) and the nuclear tech will be French, you already have a design, the Barracuda class of France but this will be delivered well after 2020. Also, given the same money problems that affected the air force, I doubt you will be able to order 10 more.

18 FREMM, 10 Comandante Class and 1 LSV Etna Class are under negotiation with Italia (US$ 12,7 billion).

The Brazilian press claimed that 3 months ago, there was a possible deal for the acquisition, from the Italian industry, of 18 frigates of the FREMM class, 10 offshore patrol vessels and a tanker but the major Italian business magazine (Sole 24 Ore) says that an agreement was reached between Brazil and Italy for only 4 FREMMs and 5 OPVs. It looks like the Commandante class will not be purchased. Your country is considering taking part in the British frigate replacement programme in the near future to make up numbers after only buying 4 FREMM ships and 5 small 500 ton OPV's.

Also will buy 2 Mistral from France.

I'm sure those plans have been scrapped due to budget concerns, I also don't see Brazil being able to crew those properly.

Airfore prabably will buy 32 Rafales with option for more 88 and more 48 to Navy.

Like above but this time I'm positive this plan has been postponed due to not having the money.

Brazilian Navy is waiting for Airforce to buy a new carrier, but carrier demands are done. This ship should have 50-60 ton and carry 48 F-18/Rafale/F-35. Probably will be the same new france carrier to replace Charles de Gaulle.

France isn't replacing Charles de Gaulle with the new carrier, it's to operate alongside it. Also, the PA2 (French Carrier), is being built in partnership with the UK based on the Queen Elizabeth class and will be the third ship constructed of that "class" if it even happens at all. I also really doubt you could fit 48 modern fighters on such a small carrier. Additionally, you've just put your carrier in for an overhaul I believe, I highly doubt there are any plans to replace it this side of the century. You're certainly not going to buy F-18s or F-35s so let's knock that idea on the head shall we?

Actually, just EUA and France can invade Brazil. UK can't, they just invades when get elizabeth carrier class with F-35.

Incorrect, the United Kingdom has airbases within 2000km on both Ascension Island and the Falkland Islands capable of hosting a large enough force to facilitate any attack on Brazil. Also, Russia is fully capable of launching a small scale attack via its carrier and amphibious forces.

 

[imperialman]

Apparently the RAF now has 71 Typhoons delivered and operable. But then again it has apparently only ordered 160. If nations in the 10-20 million range should operate 80, factoring for size the UK should be looking at at least 240 (80x3), possibly as many as 520 (80x6,5). In this day and age, that's one hell of a lot of aircraft.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_United_Kingdom_military_aircraft

It's funny you say that, the UK originally intended to order 232 Typhoons but I do believe in place of the 72 jet decrease, some money has been made available for UCAV development.

Also, the wiki link you provided is to an article I regularly edit and contribute to!

 

[Verbose]

It's funny you say that, the UK originally intended to order 232 Typhoons but I do believe in place of the 72 jet decrease, some money has been made available for UCAV development.

Same as everywhere I guess. The entire Swedish JAS 39 Gripen project started out based on the Cold War assumption that the Swedish airforce would operate approx. 250 machines. It now has 104 (iirc), and plenty criticism of how that's complete overkill in this day and age and way more than Sweden currently needs.

 

[Verbose]

Respectfully disagree. They've been saying tanks are obsolete since the 1970's, But new MBT's like the Abrams and Challengers have proven them wrong. Tanks provide the main assault element of an offensive, in combination with attack helos, infantry combat vehicles and close air support.

Apaches are great, but they have limited loiter and are extremely vulnerable to groundfire. Tanks stay. And tanks can kill anything on the battlefield, not just other tanks. You certainly must remember 73 Eastings where a troop of Abrams annihilated an entire Iraqi Regiment. In the same campaign, Challengers set records for long distance kills.

Sounds about right.

General consesus seems to be the helis are great at killing tanks, but not much use for holding ground.

 

[Dachs]

You certainly must remember 73 Eastings where a troop of Abrams annihilated an entire Iraqi Regiment. In the same campaign, Challengers set records for long distance kills.

Actually, it was an American armored cavalry regiment against two Republican Guard brigades. Which might be more impressive.

I actually used to live on the same block as then-Colonel McMaster. Played with his kids sometimes. Pretty awesome guy.

Sounds about right.

General consesus seems to be the helis are great at killing tanks, but not much use for holding ground.

The weird thing is that Red Army doctrine famously regarded the helicopter as a "flying tank" that, unlike fixed-wing aircraft, was able to hold ground - and this was post-Vietnam, when that was shown to be emphatically untrue.

 

[Verbose]

The weird thing is that Red Army doctrine famously regarded the helicopter as a "flying tank" that, unlike fixed-wing aircraft, was able to hold ground - and this was post-Vietnam, when that was shown to be emphatically untrue.

Maybe it's supposed to work if you have lots, and lots, and lots of them?

 

[Ajidica]

Maybe it has something to do with the fact they built their gunships big enough that they could be hit by Mt. Everest and still manage to vaporize you.